If I only knew then...

[rattler]

In reguards to my first jobs. I wished I had realized the value of a seniority number. If I did I would not have remained at a 135 job (under a training contract) while defering a class date at CoEx. I let my old C.P. tell me I owed him 1 more month. I stayed while many of my FOs went on to CoEx breaking their contracts. The result was all these FOs that walked on their contracts are now senior to me at CoEx. They also still have a job. I am currently #26 in the furlough pool. The training contract was unenforceable.

 

[avbug]

Perhaps the training contract wasn't enforceable, but who put a gun to your head when you merrily took the job in the first place. Must you be forced to be honorable?

I've been offered some great jobs in the past, which I turned down. Not because I didn't want them, but because I had a commitment to my employer. I don't just walk out on someone. Regardless of the type of equipment, or the wage. I have never signed a contract, but I've shaken a mans hand and agreed to stay on for a season, or a length of time, or to not desert him when his hands are full.

If you didn't intend to show some degree of honor in living up to your word, why did you sign the contract in the first place?

You haven't learned a single constructive thing. You're lamenting the fact that you didn't break your word, and centering it on the issue of enforcability. Who cares? Your word should be your bond, and nobody should have to force you to live up to it.

Perhaps showing honor is a small thing in your town, but the truth is, it's part of being a man.

I went to work for a company that required a one year commitment after being typed. I shook hands on that agreement, where others had just signed a form. The employer knew I'd keep my word, and I did. Six different hotshots rolled in with high performance turbine experience (fighter community), and each one went to Flight Safety. Not a single one gave an hour of service. Some were recruited away to other companies right at Flight Safety. Others just took the type and ran. They figured out the paper they signed wasn't enforceable.

Such a thing is dishonest, and reprehensible.

Speaking of coex, I interviewed there some time back. I was out of work, and looking. They called, and I went. I did the little one-on-one thing in a motel room across the bed (cheapest interview I've ever sat through). Of the 30 odd applicants present, I was the only one who wouldn't be required to buy his job...I had ample experience and they didn't require it of me. However, when it came my turn to ask questions at the end of the interview, I asked if it was true that the company wouldn't cover my motel, meals, etc, during training.

Sure, that's the case, I was told. But why worry. You're lucky. All these other kids are paying for their ratings to get in. You don't have to do that. You should feel grateful. I started laughing, and got up to leave. I thanked them for their time and for the good laugh, and left. What they were doing wasn't honorable, either, and I wanted no part of it.

Sometimes in this business you get to make a decision of what you want, or what sounds good, vs. what is right. It's not always an easy decision. However, living up to one's word, and refusing to knuckle under to immoral hiring practices, aren't hard decisions. Just do it.

 

[Eagleflip]

AvBug--

Not that you were making a generalization about the fighter community, but I wanted to stand up for the many who do the right thing.

Take Albie for one. Hired by both JetBlue and FedEx, he had the world by the horns to all who witnessed his situation on this board. By his admission, however, he was absolutely transfixed by his problem--join a top notch cargo operator or enter the world of a start-up, albeit a classy one?

His true dilemma? He could have begun training with JetBlue for a couple of months (hedging his bets in case FedEx changed plans), then shifted to FedEx when their training date came up. He and I shared info and opinions galore during this time, and he came upon the right answer--he'd do the right thing and wait it out for FedEx, thereby freeing a slot at JetBlue training. He then wrote one of the best "Thank you but no thanks..." letters I've ever read; sent to the HR department, it stood alone in it's self-deprecating manner and honesty. Albie remains in good standing with our management due to his honesty.

Yes, there were many other issues at play for his decision, but he knew that the honorable thing would not allow him to take the JB training as a placeholder.

I won't belabor my own situation, but it followed somewhat similar lines as Albie's. For those that didn't follow the honorable path--well, neither you nor I don't have much respect for them. And, unfortunately or not, their types are not limited to the fighter community, the military, or pilots in general.

Of note, however, I've heard many folks on this board and elsewhere espouse the philosophy of "get what you can and d*$% the contract/agreement." Is this attitude common?

 

[Shag_McNasty]

Speaking of coex, I interviewed there some time back. I was out of work, and looking. They called, and I went. I did the little one-on-one thing in a motel room across the bed

Was she good lookin' or did you have to close your eyes?

 

[414Flyer]

I think that attitude is too common personally. THere is always griping about evil management, but unfortunately, there are many pilots who are no better.

Once, someone on the older propilot board asked about whether one should stick an an agreement one said, and I replied with someone along the lines of one should really try and stick to ones word. Some has the mature reply of calling me a "management toad". Integrity should be something we all strive for, not just something used to beat up on management, while forgetting it in our own career pursuits.

 

[avbug]

Eagleflip,

I should have clarified that. I wasn't attempting to disparage the fighter community. Rather, by coincidence, each applicant for that position was from the fighter community. The common link was that each was promised a rapid upgrade due to ample high performance turbine experience. Sign on, go straight to flight safety, and expect a rapid upgrade.

That particular company was very reluctant to spend money on typing an applicant unless they were assured the applicant would stay, and unless the applicant could zip through the training with no problem. These applicants promised to stay, signed the agreements (which like most, were not economically enforcable), and had the experience and aptitude to do what they said.

One other joined, he was a recently separated C-21 driver, who was right at home. He stayed for a year, but wouldn't accept flights that he didn't like, and placed too many limitations on when he would agree to work. He was terminated.

The point of those individuals was that with their former experience, they had little difficulty hiring most any place. Unlike say, a flight instructor applicant who would be hungry for time turbine experience and the type, these folks weren't. They took their agreements and their type none too seriously. They got the training and jumped ship.

Yes, I believe that attitude is very common in this industry. It's no one community; it's rampant throughout the industry. It's the time-building mentality. So few are interested in building experience...it's purely a curtain climbing issue to get to the top. Those folks don't care who they step on, who they rip off, or how they do it, so long as they get their time, their rating and move on.

Personally, when I shake on an agreement, it's a done deal. I fully expect that I will live up to the agreement, and that the other partie(s) will do the same. Then again, I pull over to help stranded motorists and even hitch hikers, on the belief that what comes around goes around. A man can walk away from an employer and his agreement, but he cannot walk away from himself. At some point, he must look himself in the mirror. I can't do that squarely unless I know where I stand, and the best way to accomplish that is through honesty.

 

[supsup]

shoulda woulda coulda.

-Buy all of your toys before you get married.
-Don't sell your toys after you get married.
-Don't quit going to school and then finish 5 years later.
-Don't quit flying and go and work for the railroad thinking that money is the answer to all your problems.
-When your in a c-150 and tower says caution wake turbulence, they really do mean "caution wake turbulence!!!!!!!"

supsup

 

[Timebuilder]

Personally, when I shake on an agreement, it's a done deal. I fully expect that I will live up to the agreement, and that the other partie(s) will do the same. Then again, I pull over to help stranded motorists and even hitch hikers, on the belief that what comes around goes around. A man can walk away from an employer and his agreement, but he cannot walk away from himself. At some point, he must look himself in the mirror. I can't do that squarely unless I know where I stand, and the best way to accomplish that is through honesty.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I am considering typing myself and retaining my autonomy. If I let my boss type me, I will stay for a year to make his investment pay off, since many have told me that this is the expected "industry standard".

The quote above should be read by every public school student, since "old fashioned" values were swept out of the schools along with the Lord's Prayer.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes, what comes around does ago around

Back in 99, I was flying a T-210 for a guy on a by the day contract basis, and he wanted a twin commander badly. He told me if I found one that he bought, he would have me fly it on salary. He was just a VFR private pilot, single engine, but used it a lot for business

Well I did a lot of work, found him one and he bought it. I told him we should fly it for a bit before doing the panel upgrades and paint, so we would know what needed to be improved but he insisted on putting it in the paint shop right away and doing the panel work, which would take about a month at least.

A couple of weeks later, I get a call from a friend of mine who knew of a open right seat on a citation 500, that I could probably have. I declined, since I had found this plane for the guy, and did not want to ditch him like that.

About two days later, I got an email, not even a phone call at that, saying he wouldnt be needing me for the twin commander, but thanks for finding it..or something along those lines.

I was so pissed off, for a week I could hardly think straight. I had even turned down a right seat jet time for this guy, and he just by email tells me he wont need me for the commander. There went my shot at multi engine time. I found out he had found someone who would do office work too in addition to flying.

Picked myself back up, sent out resume and got my career back on track, with VFR tours in Hawaii, freight in Fargo, cloud seeding in Hondo, and air ambulance in NM/AZ...

Just heard the other day, this person that I found the commander for and who offered me a job flying it and rescinded it by email, had been out flying his commander 500, on his single engine VFR license (4 hours later he has still not gotten his multi, even after owning a twin).

FAA busted him flying it. Apparently he had pissed off someone else who turned him in, and the FAA was waiting for him.

I am not a vindictive person, but I still could not help but crack a smile.