If I didn't have the bug before...

[BenderGonzales]

Pilot on the rise,

I understand your excitement. I used to share it. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean that I dont love flying anymore. I do!

And it doesn't mean that I dont miss flying the 737, I do.

But what it DOES mean is that the profession is no longer what it once was.

The people here who talk about SJS (myself included), and who whine about their jobs and who are looking for alternate careers are trying to share with you the benefit of their experience.

Sure, flying is a great job with many rewards. But it comes at a price.

The price, as of late, is profoundly bad job-security, lost retirement, outsourcing, increased time away from home, limited ability to recover from a furlough, and compensation that is a fraction of what it once was.

There are root causes of the above. ALPA, regional-jets, and places like Mesa pilot development, Comair academy, the old FSI pay-for-training programs, Embry Riddle and other pilot mills.

So don't mistake our bitterness as lack of ambition. Certainly don't mistake it for lack of passion. We love flying every bit as much as you do. We share your passion and we remember what it was like to have that enthusiasm.

If I sat in a UPS A300 tomorrow, i'd be drooling over it just like you did.

The difference between you and I is nothing more than a decade of experience in an industry that is extremely frustrating. Many of us have started over so many times (due to furloughs, mergers, etc.) that its nearly impossible to raise a family and retire. The prospects for our return to "the majors" is bleak -- and if we did get there, what would we benefit? The compensation and retirement are no longer there. The lifestyle is no longer there.

So please, enjoy your flying. But don't fall victim to SJS. Dont ever find yourself in a position where your ambition for a bigger, faster, airplane -- or that extra bit of "experience" needed to apply at another airline -- comes at the expense of a reasonable rate of pay. And for gods sake my friend, find a plan B. Get a real estate license, be an accountant, learn to build houses, or be a manager at home depot... just get a plan B.

Good luck. I hope you get to the cockpit of that A300 someday. Until then, fly smart.

 

[Donsa320]

I got to sit in the cockpit of a UPS A300 the other day. I probably drooled all over it. If that is not enough to give you the bug, I don't know what else will.

So, why do I write this:

While sitting in the cockpit, I couldn't help but think of how lucky pilots are. Sure the regionals could pay more to their FO's, sure the industry is having some problems right now, although hopefully it begins to straighten out sometime soon, and there are always going to be some negatives, but it is still the best job in the world. I thought to myself; "I can either have this cockpit be my office, and be 30,000 feet in the air, or sit in a cramped office in some office building somewhere, doing paperwork all day". I choose the first one.

Things can always be better, but realize what you do for a living. Theres nothing much better if you ask me. I hope to oneday soon be joining you all in the cockpit. Until then, I'll keep training away.

Please excuse what may be a lengthy reply.
I am 74 but I can certainly still feel the emotions that you do. I soloed in J-3 Cubs in 1951. Joined the USAF the same year mostly to avoid getting drafted for Korea. My high school buddies were there and wrote back that it was terrible. I was sent to radio mechanic's school at Scott AFB, Ill. I discoverd a little grass field right close to the base where I could rent an Aeronca Champion for $8 an hour. Eureka! I then applied for Aviation Cadet Training and was accepted in a few months. There was an old DC-2/C-40 fuselage sitting on blocks in the woods near the barracks. I'd sneak out there and DREAM, just as you did in the A-300. After 8 years in the USAF flying mostly transports, I resigned in 1959 and got on within 2 weeks with North Central Airlines...in DC-3s. I was flying with 2 year captains, wow, quick upgrades right? Wrong....7 years later I was still an F/O flying with the same, now, 9 year captains. But finally my time comes and I make DC-3 Captain. Of course we have DC-9s on the property also by this time, arg. In the next 12 months I make captain in the Convair 440 and then the Convair 580. 10, count them, 10 years later I finally make DC-9 Captain and then B-727 Captain. At that point I have 20 years with the company. Through mergers I end up on NorthWest. I was too short for NWA in 1960, they wanted 6ft tall pilots....yep, shorter need not apply at NWA! But they got me anyway in 1986 and then I made A320 captain and finally 747-400 captain for which I took the pay and stayed on the A320.
I'm now retired, but I still know how YOU feel! Don't let the naysayers get you down. You will enjoy the career if you keep a good attitude.

Best Wishes
DC

 

[doh]

Don't let them get you down. (PILOT on the Rise) Yeah its got its up and downs. But if its what you want to do, do it.

I wish all these guys that keep complaining about the industry would get out, Oh I know you //expected// different things. Its never too late to change careers. That's why there are 40 yr old FO's at regionals.

That SJS stuff is stupid too, yes I fly a jet. But its not shiny and I could care less. Actually my dream airplane to fly at an airline would be a Q400 (out of my hometown) Props are alot more fun anyhow. Although I hear the Q400 is a Mx disaster.

P1

P1,
If all the people who got into this because of the "money" would bail, their wouldn't be an excess of pilots. Then the money would be better!:laugh:

 

[jimcav]

Nice post Donsa320.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I understand what the airline industry has gone through over the last several years. I can understand the frustration coming from many of you. It is one thing to love flying, but when you are trying to support a family, and build a retirement, sometimes things are more important than the 'flying' itself. My simple solution to those feeling this frustration is not to quit, but stick it out. I'm referring to the people not just feeling that frustration, but also feeling a hatred toward the job, and flying. I don't say quit simply because it opens a seat for me, but because it would probably be best for them.

Otherwise, remember that the airline industry has gone through this before, and come out booming again. Will that happen this time? I don't think we can answer that for sure, but I think it will improve. It might be a transformation from the Delta, American United, NorthWest days, to a SouthWest, JetBlue, AirTran, Continental days, but atleast we have something to look forward to. The airlines may change, but hopefully the industry is moving again. Don't consider yourself stuck at a regional, with no hope at a major job. If you believe it, and strive for it, eventually it will happen, whether sooner or later. Pay may not be what is once was a the majors, but that could change, but even as it is now, it is a very good living. Salaries are still higher than what most people make in a desk career.

 

[BenderGonzales]

"My simple solution to those feeling this frustration is not to quit, but stick it out."

I dont mean to be rude, but I think that this is a simplistic and somewhat sophomoric solution.

Many of us have "been there/done that". These are pilots who worked for the regionals for the better part of the 90s, moved on to the majors for a few years and were furloughed. Heck, for some of the US Airways furloughees, they were at the company for 15+ years... and THEN furloughed.

How exactly are these people supposed to "stick it out"? Many (including me) went to the regionals for a few years after the furlough. It was still fun but, guess what, newhire pay at the regionals isn't enough to support a family. And to add insult to injury, the upgrade times at most regionals were still very long. 5+ years. That is 5+ years of wasted time for a major airline furloughee.

They gain NOTHING from that continued time in the right seat at $25,000/yr. They are simply wasting away their lives while they apply to SWA every six months or hope that FedEx eventually calls.

If you are a responsible person who wants a good lifestyle for your family, college for your kids, and a secure retirement, then "stick it out" is an unworkable solution.

I left the regionals a year ago -- 2 years after I was furloughed from a major. That's one more seat open for you. I hope you have better luck than I did. I tried to "stick it out" for two years. The regional salary, time away from home, slow upgrade, limited retirement, and management's treatment of pilots simply wasn't worth it to me.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you dont have to learn all of this the hard way.

 

[acaTerry]

I think what everyone is trying to tell you here is that yes flying is good. But don't pee all over yourself on how easy you THINK we have it until you have travelled the road yourself. I know all those shiny glass tubes make it look easy, but the path to get there just plain stinks.
Once the nightmare years are over it gets good FOR THE FEW WHO MAKE IT THAT FAR. My 2 cents is that airline jobs are no good any more unless you are already financially set, and are single. If you intend on making a living at airline piloting and have a family, the odds are that airlines will make you unhappy once the thrill of SJS is over. I am much happier at the fracs, and think you may want to consider the airlines as a (gasp) stepping stone.
Good luck and fly safe.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Flying is a hard way to make an easy living.

 

[Donsa320]

Nice post Donsa320.

Thanks, good buddy. $450 a month and all the gum we could chew (chicklets for the pax ears) and we were reasonably happy F/Os in the DC-3. <grin>

I was fortunate enough to never to get furloughed ( got within a few numbers once, though) and no strikes ( got within a few MINUTES of one once). I got paid in stock one month (Republic... on the rocks, 1982.) I realize that deregulation has made more of a crap shoot of it but pick out a good carrier and stay with it if at all possible. I was BLESSED with honorable people in the union and on the company side. This present mess cannot go on much longer. IMHO.

Best
DC

 

[justenjoyflyin]

good to hear from pilots that actually like their job

I wish all the disgruntled pilots that do nothing but complain would take a desk job, and give the opportunity to someone that actually wants to be up there.

 

[acaTerry]

I wish all the disgruntled pilots that do nothing but complain would take a desk job, and give the opportunity to someone that actually wants to be up there.

Easy to say at 900 hrs. It's not the flying they are disgruntled about. It's the fact that what would have been a lucrative profession has been turned into a dead-end job with no future. After 10-20 years of flying, they can't just "quit" as you wish they would. Perhaps when you get where they are you will see.

 

[FN FAL]

Please excuse what may be a lengthy reply.
I am 74 but I can certainly still feel the emotions that you do. I soloed in J-3 Cubs in 1951. Joined the USAF the same year mostly to avoid getting drafted for Korea. My high school buddies were there and wrote back that it was terrible. I was sent to radio mechanic's school at Scott AFB, Ill. I discoverd a little grass field right close to the base where I could rent an Aeronca Champion for $8 an hour. Eureka! I then applied for Aviation Cadet Training and was accepted in a few months. There was an old DC-2/C-40 fuselage sitting on blocks in the woods near the barracks. I'd sneak out there and DREAM, just as you did in the A-300. After 8 years in the USAF flying mostly transports, I resigned in 1959 and got on within 2 weeks with North Central Airlines...in DC-3s. I was flying with 2 year captains, wow, quick upgrades right? Wrong....7 years later I was still an F/O flying with the same, now, 9 year captains. But finally my time comes and I make DC-3 Captain. Of course we have DC-9s on the property also by this time, arg. In the next 12 months I make captain in the Convair 440 and then the Convair 580. 10, count them, 10 years later I finally make DC-9 Captain and then B-727 Captain. At that point I have 20 years with the company. Through mergers I end up on NorthWest. I was too short for NWA in 1960, they wanted 6ft tall pilots....yep, shorter need not apply at NWA! But they got me anyway in 1986 and then I made A320 captain and finally 747-400 captain for which I took the pay and stayed on the A320.
I'm now retired, but I still know how YOU feel! Don't let the naysayers get you down. You will enjoy the career if you keep a good attitude.

Best Wishes
DC

Hey Donza, do you know Dave Foran, the "smooth canadian"? Or ED or Charlie Severson? I've had the pleasure of trading stories and drinking with these guys. I bet you know them.

 

[Donsa320]

Hey Donza, do you know Dave Foran, the "smooth canadian"? Or ED or Charlie Severson? I've had the pleasure of trading stories and drinking with these guys. I bet you know them.

Yep, sure do, but I thought they had extradited Dave back to Canada. <big grin> Are the others out of prison yet? <very big grin>

Just kidding...say hello to them for me at the next bear hunt. They'll know who "DC" is probably.

DC

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The grass lots of time tends to always be greener on the otherside. That's what alot of the guys on this site get disollusioned with...


We were taxiing into the ramp in CAE on saturday and saw a cessna takeoff and make a hard turn about 100 feet off the ruwnway overhead us. FO and I looked at each other and went "man... flying the little planes was fun... " Then we realized that the CFI in that plane probably was looking down at us and saying "man... I would give my left nut to be in that plane." Make the best of it and enjoy it.

There are certain days (more now than it used to be b/c of all the crap going on) where it feels more like a job and I get sick of the douchebags that run the companies.... but I always enjoy flying. Keep your eyes on your goal and dont stop until you reach it. I am having fun in the RJ... but I see a purple tail taxiing by and get the same feeling that I had looking at the CRJ when I was an instructor. Good luck!

(edited then realized that I still can't spell.. go figure)

 

[HMR]

PilotOnTheRise- Why not aim for a corporate flying gig? Great pay, schedule and equipment if you choose the right company. Worked for me.