I'd be interested to hear a few SW Pilots' opinions on this...

[akairman702]

These are the last few sentences reproduced from a NY Times article which was discussing the effect of industry wide pay cuts and work rule changes on pilots' morale. The Southwest Pilot's Union Representative (excuse me if I didn't get his title exactly right) was a little... err... unexpected. This isn't meant to be flame-bait but I'd like to know if this is a common point of view at SW.


Not everyone agrees that the longer working schedule is a problem.

"It's hard for me to feel sorry for them," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.

"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."

 

[TrumanSparks]

This has been covered in several other threads, but the quote was false. This the letter that SWAPA put out.


SOUTHWEST AIRLINES
Pilots' Association
March 7, 2006

Captain Duane E. Woerth, President, ALPA
535 Herndon Parkway Herndon, VA 20170

Dear Duane,

On Monday, March 6 an article authored by Matthew Wald, New York Times writer, quoted a Southwest Airlines' pilot in an article entitled "Nothing but Gray Skies " After speaking to the reporter personally on at least two occasions today and speaking to the pilot who was "quoted" in the article I'm confident the reporter for some unknown reason included inaccurate and unsubstantiated comments attributed to a Southwest Airlines' pilot.

1. When asked several times today, the reporter could not recall specifically the time and place he allegedly interviewed the Southwest Airlines' pilot.. He was asked in very specific terms and was given several opportunities to confirm the precise comments he created to the pilot. He could not confirm they occurred as printed.
2. The reporter did call SWAPA for a comment in late .January in regards to another topic. He spoke to a SWAPA staff member who has a record of the call,. No information was passed to the reporter other than an acknowledgment of his request for information that would be passed to the appropriate individuals.
3 The reporter stated he was given the pilot's name by a SWAPA staff member, however the SWAPA staff' member confirmed this did not occur. It is the policy of SWAPA to never release the name of members to outside agencies; this includes the press.
4 The Captain involved was never interviewed by this reporter in regards to this story The Captain categorically denies the statements attributed to him.

The press can be your friend; however in this case Mr. Wald got it wrong. The alleged quotes reported by Mr. Wald in no way reflect the views or opinions of the Southwest Airlines' pilots SWAPA appreciates what all pilots have sacrificed to save their airlines and works cooperatively on many levels with ALPA, APA and all professional pilot organizations. SWAPA is contacting the paper to request a retraction and is pursuing other avenues to correct the inaccurate reporting which occurred

Best regards,
Joseph "Ike" Eichelkraut President, SWAPA
Brookview Plaza 0 1450 Empire Central Dr Suite 737 0 Dallas TX 75247
Phone: 214..350-9237 • Tollfree: 800-969-7972 . Fax: 214-350-0647 s www swapa org

 

[akairman702]

Thanks Truman (ARCH!!! ARCH!!!)

I just got off a trip and didn't realize it has been a hot topic of late. Thanks for the head's up.

 

[TrumanSparks]

Well it gets even more interesting. The original article was published on Monday in another news paper (not the NYT), We (SWAPA) protested the quote, but the NYT ran the article in their paper later in the week. Needless to say we have sent another letter worded a little more "strongly". We'll see where this goes.

(dude, you're gonna bounce)

 

[Falconjet]

The following is from the ALPA Faast Read from March 10th. Sounds like things are ok between ALPA and SWAPA.



Capt. Ike Eichelkraut, the president of the Southwest Airline Pilots Association, is criticizing a New York Times reporter for incorrectly quoting a SWAPA safety representative. The remarks in question upset many ALPA pilots because they seemed to suggest that network pilots who have taken massive concessions deserved what they got.
The story in question, "Airline Pilots Still Flying, but No Longer Quite So High," was written by Times reporter Matthew L. Wald and ran originally on the Times website on Monday, March 6. The article was a mix of interviews with US Airways, American, and United pilots--with commentary by industry observers--describing life in the post-concessionary world.
It focused on stress, fatigue, and morale problems. It concluded with disputed quotes from SWAPA's safety chairman, including calling network pilots "spoiled brats" who had a "cushy job… You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
Alerted to the SWAPA representative's harsh remarks at the end of the otherwise competent article, Capt. Eichelkraut discussed the issue with the safety chairman, who stated he was never interviewed for the story and categorically denied the remarks. Capt. Eichelkraut then reached out to Wald to question the quotes. Wald apparently stuck to his story. Not wishing to leave any negative impression, Capt. Eichelkraut quickly penned a letter to ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth.
"SWAPA appreciates what all pilots have sacrificed to save their airlines and works cooperatively on many levels with ALPA, APA, and all professional pilot organizations. SWAPA is contacting the paper to request a retraction and is pursuing other avenues to correct the inaccurate reporting which occurred," the letter reads in part.
Undeterred, the Times went the next step and published, in its March 10 print edition, the exact same Wald article, challenged quotes and all. No prediction on how SWAPA will respond now.
"From my perspective, this issue is closed," Capt. Woerth says. "Ike and I had a clear and open discussion about the article, and I accept his version of events and his support for our work together at face value. ALPA pilots have indeed given up a lot and don't deserve to see criticism of any variety – whether correctly quoted or not."
The New York Times has very strict copyright procedures, and ALPA does not have the rights to republish the article. Visit the Times at www.nytimes.com to
subscribe.

FJ

 

[pipejockey]

Yeah right, those SWA cronies are laughing up a storm at the expense of pilots at the non-LCC's. The SWAPA safety rep is a bold faced liar!! Why would a reporter just make up a quote like that, he has nothing to gain. And you know what? That comment by the safety rep is the typical SWA pilots attitude, and it will come back to haunt them when the concession wagon starts to circle the SWA pilots. But you know what, I think they would bend over backwards to take cuts, I hope not but based on the things I hear from them I find it likely.

 

[chase]

On March 11, the NYT had 9 corrections for previous articles published. Two of the three involved "quotes" by individuals. Those are the ones that were reported...could there be other unsubstantiated ones that didn't make the cut because the NYT decided to not publish a retraction or correction? Certainly possible. To say that reporters get it right 100% of the time would be like saying I've never flown a bad approach (I haven't of course but for the sake of argument I'll say I have )....if folks don't like Southwest for (pick a reason...Age 60, Wright Amendment, posters on here, etc.) at least include that in your comments but to say Mr. Wald is right & SWA's pilot is guilty as charge is a bit presumptuous I would think.


Here's the link to confirm the facts I've stated above.http://www.nytimes.com/ref/pageoneplus/corrections.html

 

[737 Pylt]

On March 11, the NYT had 9 corrections for previous articles published. Two of the three involved "quotes" by individuals. Those are the ones that were reported...could there be other unsubstantiated ones that didn't make the cut because the NYT decided to not publish a retraction or correction? Certainly possible. To say that reporters get it right 100% of the time would be like saying I've never flown a bad approach (I haven't of course but for the sake of argument I'll say I have )....if folks don't like Southwest for (pick a reason...Age 60, Wright Amendment, posters on here, etc.) at least include that in your comments but to say Mr. Wald is right & SWA's pilot is guilty as charge is a bit presumptuous I would think.


Here's the link to confirm the facts I've stated above.http://www.nytimes.com/ref/pageoneplus/corrections.html

Chase:
What is SWAPA's stand on it? Meaning are they seeking legal recourse action about this "misprint." As I understand it, the reporter didn't even talk with the union rep, so not only is he not "misquoted," he ourtight LIED! That rag has always had its issues, but this crosses the line! That's why I never read that bird cage liner!
737

 

[akairman702]

Personally, if someone were to 'misquote' me to such a large degree, much less make up remarks such as those Mr. Wald supposedly put in the SWAPA Safety Chairman's mouth, I would feel obligated to push the issue until a retraction and accompanying apology was made. If that weren't forthcoming then it would seem obvious to take the newspaper or reporter to court for libel. What I'm sure I wouldn't let happen would be to allow the situation to 'blow over' without the liar taking responsibility for it one way or the other, which seems to be what Duane Woerth seems to be proposing. It makes the SWAPA Safety Chairman and ALPA look more interested in avoiding a throrough and warranted investigation into the facts, which would only be a problem if the quote was accurate.


"From my perspective, this issue is closed," Capt. Woerth says. "Ike and I had a clear and open discussion about the article, and I accept his version of events and his support for our work together at face value. ALPA pilots have indeed given up a lot and don't deserve to see criticism of any variety – whether correctly quoted or not."

"... whether correctly quoted or not."??? So suddenly there's a chance that he was correctly quoted?? If the reporter is lying, then he needs to come forward with an admission or be taken to court... am I right???

 

[chase]

Chase:
What is SWAPA's stand on it? Meaning are they seeking legal recourse action about this "misprint." As I understand it, the reporter didn't even talk with the union rep, so not only is he not "misquoted," he ourtight LIED! That rag has always had its issues, but this crosses the line! That's why I never read that bird cage liner!
737

Sent to the NYT editor on Friday:

March 10, 2006
Mr. Byron Calame
Public Editor
The New York Times
229 West 43​

​

rd Street
New York, NY 10036-3959
[email protected]
Dear Mr. Calame,
In an article on March 6 entitled, “Nothing but Gray Skies,” Matthew Wald, a New York Times reporter attributed the following quotes to Capt. Jeff Hefner, a Southwest Airlines’ pilot:
​

(the offending quote is repeated)

​

​

​

As the President of the Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association, I am requesting that you conduct a thorough investigation into the source and authenticity of this quote. After a review of telephone records, an interview with Capt. Hefner, two phone conversations with Mr. Wald, and a discussion with our Union’s Communication Chairman who also talked with Mr. Wald, there is sufficient doubt in my mind that Capt. Hefner ever made those statements to Mr. Wald.

With regard to the validity of these highly offensive quotes, and as a matter of integrity, I am requesting that your newspaper do one of the following: either determine who made the quotes andprint a correction based upon your findings; or print a full retraction and apology to not only the readers of your paper but to the pilots of all professional organizations.

I am genuinely confident that Capt. Hefner did not make the statements attributed to him. I will be happy to share other information that I have in my possession that supports my belief. I look forward to hearing from you within one calendar week.


Sincerely,
Captain Joseph “Ike” Eichelkraut
SWAPA President​

 

[Falconjet]

Come on guys/gals: Sticks and stones.

The guy says he didn't say it, and I believe him. Even if someone had, I think I could get over it.

I doubt there is much to be done besides maybe a retraction or correction, which would be nice.

It would be hard to prove that somebody was actually harmed by those comments, so I don't think there are any "damages" to be recovered by anybody via a lawsuit. Of course I'm not a lawyer, so who knows.

I do think we all ought to be big enough to accept the man's word (Capt Hefner's) and let it go.

FJ

 

[SWA/FO]

The SWAPA safety rep is a bold faced liar!! Why would a reporter just make up a quote like that, he has nothing to gain. And you know what? That comment by the safety rep is the typical SWA pilots attitude, and it will come back to haunt them when the concession wagon starts to circle the SWA pilots.

Liberal. You have no idea what you're talking about. Like no one from the NY Times has ever made stuff up before.

But you know what, I think they would bend over backwards to take cuts, I hope not but based on the things I hear from them I find it likely.

I think the only one bending over, is you pipejockey Who gave you that name anyway your luv buddy? The concession wagon is not stopping here. We make money here at Southwest. Our model is working fine.

 

[LearAv8r]

"That comment by the safety rep is the typical SWA pilots attitude, and it will come back to haunt them when the concession wagon starts to circle the SWA pilots."

yeah real intelligent.....douchebag. You shouldn't stereotype when you don't know WTF you are talking about.

How many SWA pilots do you actully know?

Probably not many. (if any at all)


Lear-

 

[SWA/FO]

After further thought and reflection... I find it disturbing that some folks bring up false ideas that concessions are coming to SWA. No Southwest Pilot on this forum including myself has "wished" pay cuts, loss of bennefits or loss of jobs on anybody at any carrier.

Yet, becuase cuts have happened at some carriers, some folks can't wait to see them here (at SWA). Its kinda funny...for years people woud make fun of Southwest, they considered our pay and model as ruining the industry. We (Southwest) took all that $hit from people and plugged along. We created (along with great managment) an airline that can weather the worst of times. What happened in the early 1990's at Southwest is similar to what CAL is doing now...Growing. Anybody calling CAL out? No... In fact CAL is probabaly at the top of the list for job seekers. Plus at SWA our pay is towards the top of the industry if not the best. Most importantly there has been no gaps in our pay...ie the checks keep rolling in.

Now some homos can't wait to see until "we get ours at Southwest". You might have a long wait, I don't see it happening. Our CEO, Gary Kelly has publicy said our pay is safe. He even said "If I had to go to our employees and ask for cuts, I would consider myself a failure". We will do what it takes to keep this machine going, everyone at Southwest will. Kelly wants our already lean machine to work even more efficent cut the waste (what little we have). We are not lazy folks here at SWA, we know how to work, we don't mind working hard. This is a great place, I luv it here as do thousands of others.

If you're out of work or just looking for an upgrade there are several companies out there. Southwest is not the only job and Southwest is not the worst job either. I think some people need to break anyway from the "units" water cooler and do their own research. Decide on their own. If I had listened to some of my friends, I would not be at Southwest. As for pipecockjockey enjoy flying your night frieght. Been there done that.

the SWA/FO has spoken!

 

[IHateIdiots]

Congrats SWA/FO

Liberal. You have no idea what you're talking about. Like no one from the NY Times has ever made stuff up before.


I think the only one bending over, is you pipejockey Who gave you that name anyway your luv buddy? The concession wagon is not stopping here. We make money here at Southwest. Our model is working fine.

SWA/FO,

You are officially the first person on the club's list. After reviewing all of your past posts, you have received the honor of being the Number 1. Congrats!

IHateIdiots
President, Idiot Hater's Club

 

[Hvy]

SWA/FO,

You are officially the first person on the club's list. After reviewing all of your past posts, you have received the honor of being the Number 1. Congrats!

IHateIdiots
President, Idiot Hater's Club

Agreed!

 

[eivieichn]

This is consistent with the message "we're too good for automation" seen in this interview:

ASW: What prompted you to make this investment in the HUD?
SWA: Initially, it has great safety value, but probably our initial look at it was for its low visibility capability. We’re able to fly Cat. IIIA approaches using the HUD.
ASW: And you can’t do that without?
SWA: Well, you can do that with autoland, but this fits nicely into our culture, where we really promote hand-flying the airplane. We develop our pilot skills not only with the number of segments we fly on a given day, but we encourage them flying the airplane and minimizing the use of automation. Using the HUD promotes hand-flying, so we can hand-fly this airplane down to Cat. III minimums – 700 RVR or 50 feet above touchdown. It takes a very high skill level, but it works very nicely into our culture and philosophy.

http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/southwest.htm

 

[SWA/FO]

Hey,

I'm honored you made up a new screen name just to try and make fun of me. With your homo buddy Hvy following right behind you, where he usually finds himself.

Hvy, you like following me all over this board? Hanging on every word I type.. Never adding to the discussion, just attacking a true American Aviator, such as myself.

Hey Tool above, 1 post? Why not go back to the CFI board where they value your opinions, we don't here :smash: . No where in the interview you posted did I read

"we're too good for automation"

 

[Tejas-Jet]

This is consistent with the message "we're too good for automation" seen in this interview:

ASW: What prompted you to make this investment in the HUD?
SWA: Initially, it has great safety value, but probably our initial look at it was for its low visibility capability. We’re able to fly Cat. IIIA approaches using the HUD.
ASW: And you can’t do that without?
SWA: Well, you can do that with autoland, but this fits nicely into our culture, where we really promote hand-flying the airplane. We develop our pilot skills not only with the number of segments we fly on a given day, but we encourage them flying the airplane and minimizing the use of automation. Using the HUD promotes hand-flying, so we can hand-fly this airplane down to Cat. III minimums – 700 RVR or 50 feet above touchdown. It takes a very high skill level, but it works very nicely into our culture and philosophy.

Yup....there are those that have never been exposed to the HUD. First let me say that I have the benefit of having flown the B-737 with autoland, V-NAV, L-NAV and Auto-Throttles. Know what? Flying the B-737 without V-NAV, Autothrottles and Autoland is not a big deal.

SWA was not the first airline to fly with the HUD. Alaska Airlines had them on their 727's and it was an Alaska 727 that did the first, fer real, no shoot, hand flown, CAT 3 approach. HUD's are now installed on all the Alaska B-737's. Not really sure if they have them on their MD-80's

Likewise, Morris Air also had HUD's on their 737's. When SWA aquired Morris Air, they took a close look at the HUD due to the fact that the Morris aquisition brought SWA some low vis, fog-prone markets.

While looking at all the options available, it was decided that the maintenance cost associated with the upkeep of the HUD, was more inexpensive than the costs of maintaining the AutoLand system. Also, it was a better fit for the SWA operational culture.

Just a more efficient, but equally as safe way, to get the same job done when the vis is down to 700 RVR.

Now you see HUD's on the Delta 737 NG's and the AA 737 NG's. More and more are coming.

Like I said, having flown both Autoland and HUD systems....I got no problem with either....

Whats your problem with it?

Tejas

 

[100LL... Again!]

I applaud any pilot group that sees over-reliance on automation as a problem and therefore encourages pilots to *GASP* actually FLY their aircraft.


On another note, the NYTimes actually FABRICATED quotes to manufacture "news"? Say it isn't so!

The NY Times is a fish wrapper.


Reference the HUDs: Is it also true that HUDs give you very low takeoff mins? I'll bet autoland doesn't help much in that regard.

 

[Hvy]

Hey,

I'm honored you made up a new screen name just to try and make fun of me. With your homo buddy Hvy following right behind you, where he usually finds himself.

Hvy, you like following me all over this board? Hanging on every word I type.. Never adding to the discussion, just attacking a true American Aviator, such as myself.

Hey Tool above, 1 post? Why not go back to the CFI board where they value your opinions, we don't here :smash: . No where in the interview you posted did I read

Homo? I'm secure enough with my sexuality not to be offended by your remark. A few of your lovely young flight attendants would agree with me. I'm willing to bet not many hang out with you. I'm also wondering if Brokeback Mountain is your favorite movie?

A "true" American aviator? I'm sure we'd all be impressed by that story.

 

[IHateIdiots]

Hey,

I'm honored you made up a new screen name just to try and make fun of me. With your homo buddy Hvy following right behind you, where he usually finds himself.

Hvy, you like following me all over this board? Hanging on every word I type.. Never adding to the discussion, just attacking a true American Aviator, such as myself.

Hey Tool above, 1 post? Why not go back to the CFI board where they value your opinions, we don't here :smash: . No where in the interview you posted did I read

You continue to prove over and over again that you belong as the top of the club's list. Thank you for verifying it. You may now go away.

IHI

P.S. I really feel bad for all the great folks at Southwest that have to put up with you on a 4 day on, 3 day off basis for the next several years.

 

[Einstein]

For all of you who like to bash SWA, compare your balance sheet with theirs. I am sure you will come to the conclusion that SWA knows their business model works and knows how to take advantage of the struggle of the Legacy carriers. Like it or not, SWA is now the biggest domestic carrier in the country. They did it by going against the norm. Say you're not scared of them if you want to but I challange any American employee to post how much American is spending in lawyers and bribes to keep the Wright Amendment in place. I think that pretty much sums it up. Although I do not work for SWA, I ride them often and they are a great group from the ticket counter to the aircraft cleaners.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm willing to bet not many hang out with you

Your right, I don't hang out with FAs

I'm also wondering if Brokeback Mountain is your favorite movie?

No, Goodfellas is.

A "true" American aviator? I'm sure we'd all be impressed by that story.

That would be more of a STATEMENT then a story. A fact.

 

[SWA/FO]

You continue to prove over and over again that you belong as the top of the club's list. Thank you for verifying it. You may now go away.

Looks as if you are the visitor on a Southwest thread. I'm the only 5 Star Senior Member on flightinfo.com and I'm not going anywhere. Show some respect, mr. 2 post. Go back to the CFI board.

P.S. I really feel bad for all the great folks at Southwest that have to put up with you on a 4 day on, 3 day off basis for the next several years.

Not a lot of 4 days on, 3 day off lines. Are you crazy, they like me, they really like me!!

 

[IHateIdiots]

Looks as if you are the visitor on a Southwest thread. I'm the only 5 Star Senior Member on flightinfo.com and I'm not going anywhere. Show some respect, mr. 2 post. Go back to the CFI board.



Not a lot of 4 days on, 3 day off lines. Are you crazy, they like me, they really like me!!

Being a five star senior member does not make you any less of an idiot. I wish you would go back and review all of your posts and see how little useful information you actually add to this board. You are a flame baiter. Your posts lack intelligence or humor. You name call and harass folks on this board. Anyone who has a different opinion from yours, you attack.

By the way, I have never been on the CFI board. I don't have one. I learned to fly on aircraft much bigger than anything you have ever flown. I have instructed on those aircraft because Uncle Sam allowed me the privilede to do so. Maybe if you would have served in the military you would have learned to respect others. More importantly, maybe you would have learned to respect yourself. By acting like such a fool on this board does not help your company's image or yours. I think that you do not have enough sense to see that. Hopefully, a post like this will wake you up. I doubt it, but maybe.

IHateIdiots

P.S. You should know who you are attacking before you attack. You would have learned that in the military.

 

[Hvy]

Your right, I don't hang out with FAs



No, Goodfellas is.



That would be more of a STATEMENT then a story. A fact.

Do tell that story. We could all use a little humor.

 

[anjinoo7]

Being a five star senior member does not make you any less of an idiot. I wish you would go back and review all of your posts and see how little useful information you actually add to this board. You are a flame baiter. Your posts lack intelligence or humor. You name call and harass folks on this board. Anyone who has a different opinion from yours, you attack.

By the way, I have never been on the CFI board. I don't have one. I learned to fly on aircraft much bigger than anything you have ever flown. I have instructed on those aircraft because Uncle Sam allowed me the privilede to do so. Maybe if you would have served in the military you would have learned to respect others. More importantly, maybe you would have learned to respect yourself. By acting like such a fool on this board does not help your company's image or yours. I think that you do not have enough sense to see that. Hopefully, a post like this will wake you up. I doubt it, but maybe.

IHateIdiots

P.S. You should know who you are attacking before you attack. You would have learned that in the military.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]IHI implies you are actually intelligent, I would submit you should try spell-check prior to posting anything more; particularly if you are going to cast aspersions on other people’s intelligence. Another thing, mentioning you "learned to fly on aircraft much bigger than anything SWA/FO learned to fly on" is the intellectual equivalent of my sister's kid saying "my dad can beat up your dad..nahnahnah, very enlightening indeed.

 

[D'Angelo]

Not everyone agrees that the longer working schedule is a problem.

"It's hard for me to feel sorry for them," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.

"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."

Actually that is exactly what needs to be said. It isnt nessecarily payrates that are problems at the majors. Its workrules!!! Not only do they want high payrates they dont want to work their money either! Its kind of like they all say you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[SWA/FO]

By the way, I have never been on the CFI board. I don't have one. I learned to fly on aircraft much bigger than anything you have ever flown

So the military is teaching primary flight in an aircraft bigger then a B737? What a waste of money, they should be using a T-99 or something with a T in it.