"I wish they would go bankrupt. They'd do us all a favor."

[Accent]

liers' anger may imperil US Airways
The Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | Tue, Dec. 28, 2004 | Thomas Ginsberg

Posted on 12/28/2004 3:45:51 PM

For a fifth day yesterday, US Airways travelers searched and waited angrily for their luggage, and many vowed never to fly the airline again, a sentiment that analysts said could doom the carrier.

"I will never fly US Air again, if I can find an alternative," said Jay Baffa of Bryn Mawr, who found his bag torn last week and went back to complain yesterday. "I wish they would go bankrupt. They'd do us all a favor."

The airline's survival hinges on continued passenger confidence, analysts said, and stranding passengers and their luggage for days - as US Airways did over the Christmas holiday weekend as hundreds of workers called in sick - doesn't help.

"It could be the straw that breaks the camel's back," said Vaughn Cordle, chief analyst at AirlineForecasts L.L.C., an independent research firm in Virginia.

As many as 240 baggage handlers and ground crew - up to one-third of the daily staffing level - called in sick at one point during the Christmas travel rush, said a source at the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, speaking on condition that he not be identified.

He called their actions uncoordinated, individual expressions of anger, not an intentional job protest.

(Excerpt) Read more at philly.com ...

 

[navigator72]

This is part of the problem

I just read this on Yahoo news.

"In a message to its employees Tuesday, US Airways sought volunteers willing to give up their New Year's Eve plans and work for free in Philadelphia. It said they could expect to be used as customer greeters, ramp agents or baggage sorters."

I don't work for the airlines but it seems to me that if they want people to come to Philly and work then they ought to at least pay them something.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Best of luck to the USAir crews. I know ya'll tried hard.

 

[capt. megadeth]

"I will never fly US Air again, if I can find an alternative," said Jay Baffa of Bryn Mawr, who found his bag torn last week and went back to complain yesterday.

I love it......"I will never fly US Air again, if I can find an alternative"........yeah right....he'll be back. $29 round trip or $35 round trip.....Um, Alex.....I'll take the round trip for $29.

 

[JohnE]

"I will never fly US Air again, if I can find an alternative," said Jay Baffa of Bryn Mawr, who found his bag torn last week and went back to complain yesterday.

I love it......"I will never fly US Air again, if I can find an alternative"........yeah right....he'll be back. $29 round trip or $35 round trip.....Um, Alex.....I'll take the round trip for $29.

Exactly... I said the same thing about United. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ers deleted my ticket because I showed up late for a flight back thinking I could fly standby. Wanted $680 to fly LAX-ORD one way. I ended up paying $650 to American to get back from an interview. Real pieces of work. Highest paid and somehow worst customer service. No wonder they are bankrupt. I have had very good service on the budget airlines (SWA, AirTran, and Frontier). American is still good though. I watched the SWA FA's turnaround a plane in 20 minutes. I heard the top pilots at United get $320k per year.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I heard the top pilots at United get $320k per year.

Yep, all three of em.

 

[Swede]

I DETEST news medias who report pilot salary as "Topping out at $XXX,XXX". They get the salaries for the top 10 guys who are flying 747/777 to Asia, and post that as typical of the industry.

It's like saying "Realtors make upwards of $500,000 annually" as they look at a couple of guys who sell SoCal real estate to rich hollywood types.

The public perception is killing us, and any legit job actions are spit upon as tantrums by rich, spoiled brats.

 

[bart]

The situation at USAir is bad. It is sad that there is probably no way to save it. It is no surprise though... I remember studying the airline in business school in 1989 and concluding then that there was about no way they would ever make money.

Unfortunately, it seems that labor and management are so intent on winning against each other that they fail to see that they are lighting their own ship on fire and thinking that will show the other guy. When the ship finally sinks, it will certainly be the other guy's fault.

This is why I have chosen not to fly 121. There are very few carriers that have figured out how to make money and keep their employees happy. At the first sign of financial trouble, everybody (LABOR AND MANAGEMENT) starts with "grab all you can, while you can" and the organization becomes a miserable place to be. Then they lose focus on the guy paying the bills (the customer) and they become just another bargaining chip, whcih leads to decreased revenues.

Look at Delta and how it has changed from 1985 to today. I used to love to fly that airline, the employees loved their work and took care of the customers. They were great to do business with. Today, I avoid them like the plague, which is hard to do living in ATL. I avoid them because they are unhappy and treat me poorly. I do have to fly them sometimes, but I avoid it when I can.

I would love to see a day when things were different for 121 carriers, and when I do, I may change my career goals.

 

[VA AV8R]

The big salaries are evaporating along with the decent lifestyles...

 

[Publishers]

bart,

You may be right from the standpoint of labor but I really never saw much of the contest from the management side. The difficult decisions in running an airline are many and labor but a small part of the equation that has to go right.

In the legacies versus the LCC's, you have a traditional market battle and the entrenched attitudes of the majors make it a very difficult transition to the way it will be in the future.

The actions or failure of actions with the personnel in PHL are examples of the width of the problem, it goes far beyond pilots. While you may have more empathy with the pilot who is not going to be getting the big salary, many still make comforable livings as compared to the baggage handlers, flight attendants, reservationists, csr's, etc.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Yep, all three of em.

HA HA HA HA HA!! I love it!

 

[JohnE]

HA HA HA HA HA!! I love it!

You guys are probably right. lol. United deserves what they got. I remember investing in ValueJet (now AirTran) back after the accident. United was really pushing to try to get rid of these types of carriers. United felt threatened by their low frills, low cost techniques. Today AirTran & Southwest are the model. Crazy that they pay less, but the employees seem much more happy. I'd have to say being a customer on United it always seemed like about 90% of them were always angry and gave really poor service. They catered to the elite frequent flier type travelers. Good ridance.

 

[TrafficInSight]

Honestly, I've never had bad service from any airline.

United allowed me to check a bag after the cutoff time because I had forgotten about a small screwdriver set in the bag, still made the flight just fine and didn't lose the set to the TSA. The bag even made it to where I was going.

Northwest let me sit in first class because I had been stuck at the airport in Vegas all night. Hell is being stuck in vegas at age 19 They offered to buy me a hotel room but I got in at 10:00pm and the first flight was at 6:00am, by the time I got to the room and got checked in I'd only get a few hours of sleep so I declined and asked for blankets and pillows instead, which they were happy to provide. Camped out right there on the terminal floor.

Never had anything but a normal flight with Southwest.

Had the worst landing ever, and almost a midair with a 172 with America West, the near midair wasn't their fault, and I've made a few bad landings so I can forgive that

There have been others but nothing really stands out.

Honestly I think I'm just an easy traveller. I always show up prepared with plenty of time to spare and a healthy appreciation for what goes on on the other side of the counter.

 

[Mugs]

You guys are probably right. lol. United deserves what they got. I remember investing in ValueJet (now AirTran) back after the accident. United was really pushing to try to get rid of these types of carriers. United felt threatened by their low frills, low cost techniques. Today AirTran & Southwest are the model. Crazy that they pay less, but the employees seem much more happy. I'd have to say being a customer on United it always seemed like about 90% of them were always angry and gave really poor service. They catered to the elite frequent flier type travelers. Good ridance.

When the LCC carriers mature and become perhaps the dominant forces in the domestic market, do you think the employees will continue to be happy with less John? Nobody in this business, over the long run, is going to be content with less so you can buy a cheap ticket. Someday you may find yourself complaining about those carriers as the future new entrants beat them up with ultra low costs. Of course, it will all be the fault of an aged labor force for demanding improved pay and working conditions over the years that made the company "vulnerable." By the way, SWA now pays more than the large legacy carriers in most every position. For now, they have a system that allows for it just as the legacy carriers used to have systems that allowed for their respectable pay / benefits of the past. If they can maintain it, good for them. You can bet though that they will be facing their share of new entrants in the future that will pay a fraction of what they do. Remeber what the CEO of Continental said a few months ago ---"I could compete if I could just fire everybody every five years and start over." Having a new low maintenace workforce has its advantages. Also, the analogy of the $500K realtor to the $320K United pilot was right on. Very few ever touched that level, and now none will ever see it again. So you can toss that one out the window.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

For now, they have a system that allows for it just as the legacy carriers used to have systems that allowed for their respectable pay / benefits of the past

Don't forget that SWA doesn't pay for a pension program like the legacy carriers tried to fund.

I also have a hard time figuring out why the main line MEC's couldn't have looked at the numbers years ago and figured out that this pension funding was bad for their carrier's health. How could any educated pilot group support this? Maybe they were using the Social Security logic of screw it, let the next generation figure it out.

 

[LarryinTN]

Just five years ago the pension funding looked very rosey. The high returns on investment were keeping the yearly contributions down to record lows. The problems came when the market dropped at the same time that the airline's started losing huge amounts of money. Their contribution obligations increased at a time when they had no cash to contribute.

 

[Publishers]

Good point, and, remember in the view of these issues that Southwest may pay more but that is relative to productivity.

It is the productivity that keeps the cost down. Secondly, they may rent people and services that big airlines did for themselves. You can fire and rental employee and or keep your costs at least under better control than is always possible in an employee situation.

Remember to that lifetime employment is on the decrease. The more turnover, the less cost sometimes.

 

[Dodge]

The mainline MEC's didn't care or were just too dumb to realize that a non government company can not fund a pension when they hit rocky times. One of the great things about being a pilot in the military...the taxpayers never run out of money. Welcome to lesson #37 of Economics in the private sector, boys.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I believe it is the difference between a "career" and a "job" mentality. Those of us that are trying to make a career (pilots) have lots invested in how we got here in training and education. Those that work a "job" at an airline have nothing to lose and will just move on to some other unskilled position in a different industry.

Guess who gets fuked the worst when the dust settles?

 

[Mugs]

The mainline MEC's didn't care or were just too dumb to realize that a non government company can not fund a pension when they hit rocky times. One of the great things about being a pilot in the military...the taxpayers never run out of money. Welcome to lesson #37 of Economics in the private sector, boys.

Talk about ignorant, boy. The folks that work on MEC R&I committees know a great deal about the dynamics of pension plans. That is why they are there. Meanwhile, you try to sound like a genius by quoting "lesson 37" from your economics 101 course and making the astounding comment about endless supplies of tax dollars for military pilots.

Oh well. I have lunch on occasion with a group of retired American pilots that took full lump sums on their A-plans upon reitirement. I am sure they found their MEC leaderships over the years to be dumb for putting them in that situation. What they were able to achieve was sustainable for their era. Now the game has changed for the rest of us. It certainly isn't the old guys' fault.

 

[Dodge]

Mugs,

Of course those retired American guys are glad their MEC did what they did to get the retirement package that they did. Guess what though, only the big major airlines have pensions. Others have 401k's. I can't think of anyone I know outside those that work for the government that have pensions like those at the majors.

I know its not the old guys' fault that the current pilots at majors are not going to have their pensions as was promised. Airlines are now broke and when there ain't money, things get cut that aren't life critical in the private sector. In the same breath though, all Woerth can talk about is the lost pensions and how unfair it is. He would be quite astounded to have to retire as a farmer, banker, truck driver or accountant without a full lump sum off their A plans.

 

[LarryinTN]

The American pilots don't have an MEC! They haven't had one for decades.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Airlines are now broke and when there ain't money, things get cut that aren't life critical in the private sector. .

So what you are saying is that management bonuses are life critical?

 

[jimpilot]

You know you always see guys talk about management like it is a dirty word.

Is it possible they are just people doing what they see as best for the company, even if it doesn't increase pilot pay and life style. Sure there are bad apples, but come on ...................

 

[capt. megadeth]

You know you always see guys talk about management like it is a dirty word.

Is it possible they are just people doing what they see as best for the company, even if it doesn't increase pilot pay and life style. Sure there are bad apples, but come on ...................

I think what you meant to say is what is best for their own lifestyle.