I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down

[Wheres the van?]

How about we set up an umbrella group to facilatate a national stoppage.Let the airlines sue the umbrella group then let the umbrella group declare bankruptcy and negate all debts.Nothing like poetic justice!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Exactly.
Where do you think we are, in France? Or, Italy?

How 'bout China?, wait nevermind.

 

[Morning Wood]

How short-sighted can you be?



Oh, I guess that pretty much covers it. "I don't want to strengthen our union, 'cause I won't get home in time for the new episode of Deadliest Catch."

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

What makes you think that the pilots who don't give a crap about fellow pilots, would care about mechanics and f/a's? The current wave of pilots will fly until the Chinese/third world carriers buy the next round of politicians and their votes. Johnny Mc, hates you with a passion, and will sell you ASAP, check his voting record!
PBR

 

[NCherches]

I hate to say it but it is pilot who are killing this industry... you know who you are....

- You will stay at Choice Hotels (quality inn, comfort inn)
- You will fly as a captain on a business jet for 50K
- You will do anything for the boss to keep your job
- You pay for your own training!
- You print the passenger brief thingy off of Fltplan.com
- You are too scared to charge a beer with dinner on the company credit card.
- You are too scared to hit on a skanky flight attendant
- You wash bugs off the plane on lay-overs
- You don't accept Atlantic Rewards $

Some people know who I am talking about... I hear stories about how awesome it was to be a pilot like 20 years ago... Lets bring that back!

 

[JohnQ]

This is the possibly the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. A bunch of anonymous keyboard warriors telling each other what they want to hear--even though they no more live in the real world than the space cadets who killed themselves hoping to hop a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet a few years ago.

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

As for the longshoremen being a "real" union. Do you know what they went on strike against a few years ago? BAR CODES! Yep, they were pissed that bar codes were "stealing" the jobs of their clerks.

You might as well go on strike against electricity.

After all, think of all the "jobs" we could create if we outlawed electricity and instead had to hire a bunch of guys to run around lighting kerosene lamps.

What a Bolshevik thread.

 

[NCherches]

- You post threads like the one above

 

[Dumb Pilot]

How many morons coming fresh from Embry Riddle (Broad generalization here folks) would tell you that they'd "fly for free" if it came down to that?

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

 

[waka]

This is the possibly the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. A bunch of anonymous keyboard warriors telling each other what they want to hear--even though they no more live in the real world than the space cadets who killed themselves hoping to hop a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet a few years ago.

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

As for the longshoremen being a "real" union. Do you know what they went on strike against a few years ago? BAR CODES! Yep, they were pissed that bar codes were "stealing" the jobs of their clerks.

You might as well go on strike against electricity.

After all, think of all the "jobs" we could create if we outlawed electricity and instead had to hire a bunch of guys to run around lighting kerosene lamps.

What a Bolshevik thread.

This is possibly the stupidest reply in the history of the Internet.....okay, one of the stupidest.

Okay Mr. Anti Message Board Anonymity, why don't you post your name??

I didn't think so.....hypocrite.

There is nothing wrong with dialogue and a walk-out would ever happen unless there was dialogue. Probably won't happen this time or the next or the next. But, you never know.

What a laissez faire capitalist post.

 

[JumpersAway]

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!? Gen Xer's are out there busting ass for less pay because some old farts decided to take a 45% paycut to save their @$$es after 911. Continental, American, United, USAirways- every pilot group in the industry bent over the table instead of shutting things down. And yet you blame Gen X?

It wasn't ALPA's fault either- it was the pilots fault for ratifying their contract in BK, and approving this mess. ALPA was directed by it's membership, which clearly wanted to accept the lower pay rather than the unemployment check- but at least airline pay would have remained high enough that would have made the airline industry lucrative and rebuildable.

While in contract negotiations at ASA, I had a Delta pilot preach to me the value of "raising the bar" so they could build upon it for higher pay. Even then, our old 70 seat rate was HIGHER than their accepted 90 seat Delta rate. And now they are all excited because they got a smidgen of a raise to merge with NWA???

Maybe your argument is regarding the RJ's and what we have accepted to fly them for. Nobody else wanted them, or the pilot groups associated with them. After Comair and ASA were purchased by Delta, a STAPLE would have fixed the whole mess- But No. We regional pukes were just a bunch of undertrained, undereducated cowboys that didn't have the skill or the polish to fit in with the "Big Boys''.

I was 3/4th's of the way done with an aviation degree when all this happened, and far too deep in the mess to change career paths. I didn't influence, nor did many of my college age Gen Xer's influence, the events that transpired after 9/11. For those that want someone to blame, pilot wise, look in the mirror for some clarity.

For now, I- like many other Gen Xer's, are simply trying to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit. Many of us aren't putting up with it and bailing to other career paths.

You want change- write your MEC's and explain to them you are willing to shut your airline down, start over, and move on to raise the pay grades.

Personally, I'd like to see every contract in America become ammendable at the same time, and EVERYONE propose the same pay rates for every aircraft, Pre 9/11. Force management to work to save the money, but put the pilots on a level playing field.

So far, I'd have to say that American is the only airline showing spine- those guys get my fullest respect! Everybody else just bitches.

 

[Lear70]

I hate to say it but it is pilot who are killing this industry... you know who you are....

- You will stay at Choice Hotels (quality inn, comfort inn)
- You will fly as a captain on a business jet for 50K
- You will do anything for the boss to keep your job
- You pay for your own training!
- You print the passenger brief thingy off of Fltplan.com
- You are too scared to charge a beer with dinner on the company credit card.
- You are too scared to hit on a skanky flight attendant
- You wash bugs off the plane on lay-overs
- You don't accept Atlantic Rewards $

Some people know who I am talking about... I hear stories about how awesome it was to be a pilot like 20 years ago... Lets bring that back!

Apples and oranges. You're talking about the corporate and charter guys... like what I'm currently doing. Typing on the laptop in the Marriot Vancouver (because I refused to stay in the Best Western hole next door) with a $11.95 internet surcharge per day (which I put on the company card).

A national SOS is for the airlines, and it's ILLEGAL because they work under the RLA and you and I don't. That said, AA pilots did it and got pretty severely financially punished, but for slightly different reasons. It's a long story, but a successful one.

How about we set up an umbrella group to facilatate a national stoppage.Let the airlines sue the umbrella group then let the umbrella group declare bankruptcy and negate all debts.Nothing like poetic justice!

Now THAT is an interesting idea.

Offshore website, advertising through all these pilot sites, getting people signed up and staying in communication, offshore phones, and then, when it happens, all the records are destroyed, and the company just ceases to exist.

Interesting removal of liability... A for originality! :beer:

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

Try again. Doing it right now, on unplanned vacation from airTran for my (successful) efforts to kill the last T.A.

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

Agreed. And STILL no word from IAC. *sigh*

 

[captain dad]

...and take all of those clever MBA's, those parasitic investors, the mindless kool-aide drinkers, and all of the boot lickers with us.
What a ridiculous industry.
It shouldn't be regulated.
It should be abolished.

I'd say it's burning pretty good on its own as it is.

Reregulate, make it the way it was supposed to be.

While you're at it makea national seniority list. The day you get your commercial ticket, you get a seniority number.

 

[Lear70]

You deserve your own thread, because there's a lot of misconceptions in here that need to be made clear to you.

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!? Gen Xer's are out there busting ass for less pay because some old farts decided to take a 45% paycut to save their @$$es after 911.

*buzzer* AAAANNNHHH. Wrong answer, try again.

Gen X-er's are out there working for less pay because of a MIX of issues:

1. The "old farts" decided to sell SCOPE down the river back in the day.
2. The "old farts" couldn't hammer out a deal with the "Gen X-er's" about 10 years ago for single bargaining unit (combining the regionals and the major ALPA unit for bargaining purposes) because EVERYONE at the table expected EVERYONE else to pay for it (i.e. your generation shares part of the blame).
3. Gen X-er's are, for some inexplicable reason, willing to PAY $50-$75k or more TO FLY A PART 121 AIRLINER FOR FREE. I don't give a rat's that it's a turboprop. I don't give a rat's that you are often paying for a "guaranteed interview" at some regional somwhere. It's WRONG. And many, many of your compatriots did it.
4. Gen X-er's are willing to take those jobs that pay less than poverty. Yes, the pay for these jobs was this BEFORE 9/11. They still are, not because "the old guy's" sold you down the river after 9/11, but because YOU IDIOTS KEEP COMING TO WORK FOR THOSE WAGES!!
5. Gen X-er's spent their times in the regionals (for the most part) just trying to get their time as fast as possible and GET OUT. There were VERY few who ever got involved in the MEC or actually tried to improve their contract and make a change.

So, sorry bub, but I sat there and watched what happened as someone who was born well after the baby boomers but well before generation X, trying to get involved to help change things, then frustrated because the actions of the people around me didn't match with the actions of a group that management would actually worry about.

Continental, American, United, USAirways- every pilot group in the industry bent over the table instead of shutting things down. And yet you blame Gen X?

Granted, I'm angry about this, too (read my threads from about that time, I believe they should have walked off their jobs rather than agree to those draconian cuts and pension grabs).

It wasn't ALPA's fault either- it was the pilots fault for ratifying their contract in BK, and approving this mess. ALPA was directed by it's membership, which clearly wanted to accept the lower pay rather than the unemployment check- but at least airline pay would have remained high enough that would have made the airline industry lucrative and rebuildable.

In that, you're missing a key concept:

ALPA National CAN block a ratification vote. Check your ALPA rules handbook, buddy, the current ALPA President has to sign off on any T.A. They could very well have blocked it and said NO. They didn't because the senior pilots controlled ALPA National. Period.

While in contract negotiations at ASA, I had a Delta pilot preach to me the value of "raising the bar" so they could build upon it for higher pay. Even then, our old 70 seat rate was HIGHER than their accepted 90 seat Delta rate. And now they are all excited because they got a smidgen of a raise to merge with NWA???

Correct.

Maybe your argument is regarding the RJ's and what we have accepted to fly them for.

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! And it's a valid gripe.

Nobody else wanted them, or the pilot groups associated with them. After Comair and ASA were purchased by Delta, a STAPLE would have fixed the whole mess- But No. We regional pukes were just a bunch of undertrained, undereducated cowboys that didn't have the skill or the polish to fit in with the "Big Boys''.

Again, it was a *JOINT* fu*kup, talk to Occam more for a pretty neutral view on what happened.

I was 3/4th's of the way done with an aviation degree when all this happened, and far too deep in the mess to change career paths.

That's the most bullsh*t thing you've said all day. People change career paths ALL THE TIME, even up to their senior year.

If I was still in college and saw this, I'd IMMEDIATELY bail for another career. MUCH easier to do while you're still young enough to have roommates, no wife and kids, etc, trust me.

I didn't influence, nor did many of my college age Gen Xer's influence, the events that transpired after 9/11. For those that want someone to blame, pilot wise, look in the mirror for some clarity.

Bullsh*t. BULLLL SH*T.

EVERY time one of you takes one one of those crappy $16K a year jobs. EVERY time one of you pays for training. EVERY time one of you shortcuts the system as it has existed for 20 years, you dig your own hole.

The problem is that you're too young and arrogant to believe that you could *POSSIBLY* be part of the problem, much less publicly acknowledge that FACT.

For now, I- like many other Gen Xer's, are simply trying to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit. Many of us aren't putting up with it and bailing to other career paths.

Exactly my point. Instead of fighting to improve it, you're bailing.

Classic Gen-X. "If I can't have it my way, I'll take my toys and go home".

You want change- write your MEC's and explain to them you are willing to shut your airline down, start over, and move on to raise the pay grades.

WRONG ANSWER. Again, you don't know enough about the industry and the political ramifications of even having this discussion in the open.

The MEC's are the ones who are going to get penalized the hardest. Starting a movement like this requires a lot of QB-type meetings between people who are willing to get involved and QUIETLY arrange it, behind the scenes.

A successful SOS would be a large surprise to both management AND your coworkers who weren't "in the know" (F/A's, mechanics, etc) and wouldn't require very long to get the point across (3-5 days would do it).

Passengers would scream, but they'd go right back to flying as soon as it was available, thus jeopardizing NO ONE'S paycheck except for that few days and a few carriers that were on the brink of bankruptcy anyway, although MOST of those are going to eliminate themselves in short order anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see every contract in America become ammendable at the same time, and EVERYONE propose the same pay rates for every aircraft, Pre 9/11. Force management to work to save the money, but put the pilots on a level playing field.

That's been suggested several times before. Even with identical amendable dates, there's no rule that says you all get to go out at the same time and, in fact, the NLRB would NEVER allow that to occur.

Things like this are what make me believe you've never actually served in upper-echelon union leadership. You're unfamiliar with how the process actually works during negotiations.

So far, I'd have to say that American is the only airline showing spine- those guys get my fullest respect! Everybody else just bitches.

What are YOU doing about it?

Nice rant, but the demise of the career YOU THOUGHT you were going to have rests not only on your shoulders, but the shoulders of every other pilot who takes those low-paying jobs and/or PFT's as well as the "old guys" who sold out Scope as well as the pilots who control ALPA National during that critical time after 9/11 (mostly those "old guys") as well as ALPA for failing to take initiatives to reinstate pensions rather than advance age 65 with no fences or protections (mostly those "old guys").

There's plenty of blame to go around. Question is: what are YOU going to actively get out there and DO? No internet b*tching, actually DO something to help?

If you feel that strongly, maybe YOU should organize the National SOS...

 

[JumpersAway]

Too much to quote above, so here she goes:

While you have many interesting, and good points, I still strongly disagree. Personally, I'd rather be flying a turboprop, rather than a shinny new RJ to build my time. Perhaps the reason that so many Gen Xer's are flying the RJ is because that is the only thing left any more. It's an option by default, not by choice. I wish ASA flew nothing but Brazillias- and Delta flew the jets, but someone up the pipe from me decided it wasn't to be. And it wasn't a Gen Xer.

What have I done to help? I cared enough about things to put forth effort to voice my concerns and opinions to my MEC/LEC durring the ratification of our own contract. I voted to ensure that our contract was one of the best in the regional industry. I also have a file on hand full of letters in Herndon, VA. (even if it is the circular one)

You are correct, I haven't served in the upper echelon of my pilot union. Perhaps I should- perhaps I will. Would I get the respect needed from my peers at the Legacy carriers to accomplish what I really want- NOPE!

You want to fix the problem- Brand scope, or even better: staple commuter carrier seniority lists to their respective carrier.

Why should those that bleed the most to improve the industry stand the least to gain? Until there is some reason to hang it out on the line there will be little improvement in the way things are NOW.

Personally, I feel that if an airline goes Tango Uniform while raising the bar, the pilots should be evenly distributed and sloted, by seniority, into the remaining carriers. If you knew you would have another job with comperable work rules and pay, wouldn't you be a little more daring and brave in upping the bar. I sure would.

I did bleed the same as those that went through the paycuts and losses after 9-11. Although it was as a son, rather than a pilot, the families bled the same. Our whole family, like many others, bore the brunt of things.

Believe me, as the son of a captain at a legacy- there have been many a discussion in my household regarding flying RJ's. But when it gets down to it, it ain't Gen X that totes the bill and caused the meltdown. I sure didn't vote to give up scope.

Also, Woerth approved what the pilots had agreed to accept. His signature (ALPA's Signature) was merely a formal acceptance of the proposals sent upward from below. People bitch about ALPA going against it's membership regarding age 60. Could you imagine the uproar if ALPA blocked the pilot approved concessions, and thus dumped the pilot group on the street with no jobs.

 

[Lear70]

Too much to quote above, so here she goes:

While you have many interesting, and good points, I still strongly disagree. Personally, I'd rather be flying a turboprop, rather than a shinny new RJ to build my time. Perhaps the reason that so many Gen Xer's are flying the RJ is because that is the only thing left any more. It's an option by default, not by choice.

The third choice that no one wants to accept is "refuse to fly ANYTHING at those wages".

I did. So did many others. We built our time elsewhere in decent-paying jobs out of self-respect.

Until people are willing to STOP TAKING THE POVERTY-LEVEL JOBS, you will get NO sympathy from me. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.

I wish ASA flew nothing but Brazillias- and Delta flew the jets, but someone up the pipe from me decided it wasn't to be. And it wasn't a Gen Xer.

Again, you missed how it WAS partly the fault of the Gen X group who screwed up your chances of single-list.

History's a b*tch, can't get around the facts from people who were there. I know Occam from these boards and have yet to hear him *drastically* skew the truth on this subject. He admits to guilt on both sides of the aisle (which includes the pilots who were negotiating on behalf of the regional carriers) and I believe him.

What have I done to help? I cared enough about things to put forth effort to voice my concerns and opinions to my MEC/LEC durring the ratification of our own contract. I voted to ensure that our contract was one of the best in the regional industry. I also have a file on hand full of letters in Herndon, VA. (even if it is the circular one)

That's a great start, good for you. Seriously.

You are correct, I haven't served in the upper echelon of my pilot union. Perhaps I should- perhaps I will. Would I get the respect needed from my peers at the Legacy carriers to accomplish what I really want- NOPE!

You won't know until you really try, although I agree, the top bears more responsibility to initiate change than the bottom, simply because their position allows them to more aggressively influence their peers who control ALPA. Note, I said MORE responsibility, not ALL of it.

You want to fix the problem- Brand scope, or even better: staple commuter carrier seniority lists to their respective carrier.

Correct. But you can't expect the senior people at the top to take ALL the financial and QOL hit to accomplish that.

Why should those that bleed the most to improve the industry stand the least to gain?

Whoa. Stop. You're making an important point here.

You just said that the people who would bleed the most (the senior pilots who will have to negotiate the majority of these changes) will stand the least to gain (by gaining a single seniority list).

That is 100% correct. A single seniority list won't help senior pilots, at least, not in their lifetime. It would, however, immediately bring up the bottom end (the regional pilots) into substantially-increased Quality of Life, likely increased raises, and guaranteed flow-through into a Legacy carrier.

The bar for the senior pilots would actually become HARDER to negotiate upwards when the company has to spend MORE of the money allocated for the pilot group on the most junior segment of the group.

I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, by ANY means. I AGREE WITH YOU that this needs to happen.

You and other Gen X'ers simply need to understand the COST of this change WILL be borne on the backs of the senior pilots and part of what they can negotiate for themselves will now have to be re-allocated to a junior segment.

That's a hard pill to swallow for many people within 10 years of retirement.

Until there is some reason to hang it out on the line there will be little improvement in the way things are NOW.

Correct. Now, start thinking politically, because that's the only way to accomplish anything...

HOW DO YOU GET EVERYONE ELSE TO AGREE THAT YOUR SOLUTION WILL BENEFIT EVERYONE. AND I MEAN *EVERYONE*?

Come up with a full plan, including integration timelines, counter-arguments to defeat the nay-sayers, get your MEC on board and the MEC's of several other regionals, present the resolutions, and FIGHT for it.

Share it here or via email with me if you like; I'll help you flesh it out and move forward.

All changes starts with the idea of ONE person, finds like-minded people, formulates a PLAN and then follows through with EXECUTION.

Everything else is just rhetoric.

Personally, I feel that if an airline goes Tango Uniform while raising the bar, the pilots should be evenly distributed and sloted, by seniority, into the remaining carriers. If you knew you would have another job with comperable work rules and pay, wouldn't you be a little more daring and brave in upping the bar. I sure would.

Absolutely, but a national seniority list has other problems we've discussed ad-nauseum.

I did bleed the same as those that went through the paycuts and losses after 9-11. Although it was as a son, rather than a pilot, the families bled the same. Our whole family, like many others, bore the brunt of things.

Not quite. I'm a 3rd generation pilot as well, son of a retired 23+ year USAirways pilot who has a laughably-small pension.

I've also been terminated from a Major because of "fighting the good fight".

It's never, ever the same to be the actual person it's happening to, even if you're closely related. Trust me on that; I've seen both sides now.

Believe me, as the son of a captain at a legacy- there have been many a discussion in my household regarding flying RJ's. But when it gets down to it, it ain't Gen X that totes the bill and caused the meltdown. I sure didn't vote to give up scope.

Actually, it's Gen X that will "tote the bill" because it's Gen X who will be required to fix it.

There's certainly no need for the people who gave up Scope to fight for change; they got theirs, and will be retiring in the next 7-10 years, age 65 change notwithstanding.

The senior people in the next 10 years will be the "in between" group between the Baby Boomers and Gen X.

You're going to have to fight to make it worth their while.

Also, Woerth approved what the pilots had agreed to accept. His signature (ALPA's Signature) was merely a formal acceptance of the proposals sent upward from below.

Incorrect. He had the power of veto. True, that it hadn't been used in recent decades, but he had the power to do it and ALPA National chose not to fight that fight.

The fat cats at the top were too afraid of losing what they had, and now it's happening anyway as more and more carriers start to move away from ALPA.

People bitch about ALPA going against it's membership regarding age 60. Could you imagine the uproar if ALPA blocked the pilot approved concessions, and thus dumped the pilot group on the street with no jobs.

Who said they'd be dumped on the street with no jobs if ALPA had blocked the airline's concessionary contracts?

Who are you to say the company would have shut down or liquidated? The government was already in major bail-out mode; who's to say they wouldn't have obtained better conditions by withholding services from a few carriers for even a brief period of time when the government was trying to stabilize the industry?

I will go to my grave believing that the immediate monthly salary cuts *might* have been reduced SOME, but that the PENSIONS could have been retained by sticking to their guns. The U.S. government understands why pensions are important, especially Senators and Congressmen, and could have been much more aggressively fought for, successfully in my opinion.

A lack of a pension in this industry just reduced your career earnings by over 20%. Combined with the wage cuts of 40% or so at most carriers, and you just lost over 60% of your LIFETIME CAREER EARNINGS.

That's unacceptable, and we ALL should have walked. I was an RJ Captain at the time, 29 years old, freshly furloughed from a 727 CA position and furloughed AGAIN off the RJ for the 2nd time in the same year, had just gotten back in the seat, and would STILL have walked if everyone else had.

ALPA's refusal to fight that fight when it was MOST needed, will likely be recorded in the history books as "the beginning of the end" of the pilot profession.