I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down

[Wheres the van?]

How about we set up an umbrella group to facilatate a national stoppage.Let the airlines sue the umbrella group then let the umbrella group declare bankruptcy and negate all debts.Nothing like poetic justice!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Exactly.
Where do you think we are, in France? Or, Italy?

How 'bout China?, wait nevermind.

 

[Morning Wood]

How short-sighted can you be?



Oh, I guess that pretty much covers it. "I don't want to strengthen our union, 'cause I won't get home in time for the new episode of Deadliest Catch."

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

What makes you think that the pilots who don't give a crap about fellow pilots, would care about mechanics and f/a's? The current wave of pilots will fly until the Chinese/third world carriers buy the next round of politicians and their votes. Johnny Mc, hates you with a passion, and will sell you ASAP, check his voting record!
PBR

 

[NCherches]

I hate to say it but it is pilot who are killing this industry... you know who you are....

- You will stay at Choice Hotels (quality inn, comfort inn)
- You will fly as a captain on a business jet for 50K
- You will do anything for the boss to keep your job
- You pay for your own training!
- You print the passenger brief thingy off of Fltplan.com
- You are too scared to charge a beer with dinner on the company credit card.
- You are too scared to hit on a skanky flight attendant
- You wash bugs off the plane on lay-overs
- You don't accept Atlantic Rewards $

Some people know who I am talking about... I hear stories about how awesome it was to be a pilot like 20 years ago... Lets bring that back!

 

[JohnQ]

This is the possibly the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. A bunch of anonymous keyboard warriors telling each other what they want to hear--even though they no more live in the real world than the space cadets who killed themselves hoping to hop a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet a few years ago.

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

As for the longshoremen being a "real" union. Do you know what they went on strike against a few years ago? BAR CODES! Yep, they were pissed that bar codes were "stealing" the jobs of their clerks.

You might as well go on strike against electricity.

After all, think of all the "jobs" we could create if we outlawed electricity and instead had to hire a bunch of guys to run around lighting kerosene lamps.

What a Bolshevik thread.

 

[NCherches]

- You post threads like the one above

 

[Dumb Pilot]

How many morons coming fresh from Embry Riddle (Broad generalization here folks) would tell you that they'd "fly for free" if it came down to that?

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

 

[waka]

This is the possibly the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. A bunch of anonymous keyboard warriors telling each other what they want to hear--even though they no more live in the real world than the space cadets who killed themselves hoping to hop a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet a few years ago.

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

As for the longshoremen being a "real" union. Do you know what they went on strike against a few years ago? BAR CODES! Yep, they were pissed that bar codes were "stealing" the jobs of their clerks.

You might as well go on strike against electricity.

After all, think of all the "jobs" we could create if we outlawed electricity and instead had to hire a bunch of guys to run around lighting kerosene lamps.

What a Bolshevik thread.

This is possibly the stupidest reply in the history of the Internet.....okay, one of the stupidest.

Okay Mr. Anti Message Board Anonymity, why don't you post your name??

I didn't think so.....hypocrite.

There is nothing wrong with dialogue and a walk-out would ever happen unless there was dialogue. Probably won't happen this time or the next or the next. But, you never know.

What a laissez faire capitalist post.

 

[JumpersAway]

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!? Gen Xer's are out there busting ass for less pay because some old farts decided to take a 45% paycut to save their @$$es after 911. Continental, American, United, USAirways- every pilot group in the industry bent over the table instead of shutting things down. And yet you blame Gen X?

It wasn't ALPA's fault either- it was the pilots fault for ratifying their contract in BK, and approving this mess. ALPA was directed by it's membership, which clearly wanted to accept the lower pay rather than the unemployment check- but at least airline pay would have remained high enough that would have made the airline industry lucrative and rebuildable.

While in contract negotiations at ASA, I had a Delta pilot preach to me the value of "raising the bar" so they could build upon it for higher pay. Even then, our old 70 seat rate was HIGHER than their accepted 90 seat Delta rate. And now they are all excited because they got a smidgen of a raise to merge with NWA???

Maybe your argument is regarding the RJ's and what we have accepted to fly them for. Nobody else wanted them, or the pilot groups associated with them. After Comair and ASA were purchased by Delta, a STAPLE would have fixed the whole mess- But No. We regional pukes were just a bunch of undertrained, undereducated cowboys that didn't have the skill or the polish to fit in with the "Big Boys''.

I was 3/4th's of the way done with an aviation degree when all this happened, and far too deep in the mess to change career paths. I didn't influence, nor did many of my college age Gen Xer's influence, the events that transpired after 9/11. For those that want someone to blame, pilot wise, look in the mirror for some clarity.

For now, I- like many other Gen Xer's, are simply trying to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit. Many of us aren't putting up with it and bailing to other career paths.

You want change- write your MEC's and explain to them you are willing to shut your airline down, start over, and move on to raise the pay grades.

Personally, I'd like to see every contract in America become ammendable at the same time, and EVERYONE propose the same pay rates for every aircraft, Pre 9/11. Force management to work to save the money, but put the pilots on a level playing field.

So far, I'd have to say that American is the only airline showing spine- those guys get my fullest respect! Everybody else just bitches.

 

[Lear70]

I hate to say it but it is pilot who are killing this industry... you know who you are....

- You will stay at Choice Hotels (quality inn, comfort inn)
- You will fly as a captain on a business jet for 50K
- You will do anything for the boss to keep your job
- You pay for your own training!
- You print the passenger brief thingy off of Fltplan.com
- You are too scared to charge a beer with dinner on the company credit card.
- You are too scared to hit on a skanky flight attendant
- You wash bugs off the plane on lay-overs
- You don't accept Atlantic Rewards $

Some people know who I am talking about... I hear stories about how awesome it was to be a pilot like 20 years ago... Lets bring that back!

Apples and oranges. You're talking about the corporate and charter guys... like what I'm currently doing. Typing on the laptop in the Marriot Vancouver (because I refused to stay in the Best Western hole next door) with a $11.95 internet surcharge per day (which I put on the company card).

A national SOS is for the airlines, and it's ILLEGAL because they work under the RLA and you and I don't. That said, AA pilots did it and got pretty severely financially punished, but for slightly different reasons. It's a long story, but a successful one.

How about we set up an umbrella group to facilatate a national stoppage.Let the airlines sue the umbrella group then let the umbrella group declare bankruptcy and negate all debts.Nothing like poetic justice!

Now THAT is an interesting idea.

Offshore website, advertising through all these pilot sites, getting people signed up and staying in communication, offshore phones, and then, when it happens, all the records are destroyed, and the company just ceases to exist.

Interesting removal of liability... A for originality! :beer:

You talk the talk, but I doubt even one of you would walk the walk.

Try again. Doing it right now, on unplanned vacation from airTran for my (successful) efforts to kill the last T.A.

All this PFT'rs, generation Xr's, ALPA cheerleaders, just want to make meuke:

Agreed. And STILL no word from IAC. *sigh*

 

[captain dad]

...and take all of those clever MBA's, those parasitic investors, the mindless kool-aide drinkers, and all of the boot lickers with us.
What a ridiculous industry.
It shouldn't be regulated.
It should be abolished.

I'd say it's burning pretty good on its own as it is.

Reregulate, make it the way it was supposed to be.

While you're at it makea national seniority list. The day you get your commercial ticket, you get a seniority number.

 

[Lear70]

You deserve your own thread, because there's a lot of misconceptions in here that need to be made clear to you.

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!? Gen Xer's are out there busting ass for less pay because some old farts decided to take a 45% paycut to save their @$$es after 911.

*buzzer* AAAANNNHHH. Wrong answer, try again.

Gen X-er's are out there working for less pay because of a MIX of issues:

1. The "old farts" decided to sell SCOPE down the river back in the day.
2. The "old farts" couldn't hammer out a deal with the "Gen X-er's" about 10 years ago for single bargaining unit (combining the regionals and the major ALPA unit for bargaining purposes) because EVERYONE at the table expected EVERYONE else to pay for it (i.e. your generation shares part of the blame).
3. Gen X-er's are, for some inexplicable reason, willing to PAY $50-$75k or more TO FLY A PART 121 AIRLINER FOR FREE. I don't give a rat's that it's a turboprop. I don't give a rat's that you are often paying for a "guaranteed interview" at some regional somwhere. It's WRONG. And many, many of your compatriots did it.
4. Gen X-er's are willing to take those jobs that pay less than poverty. Yes, the pay for these jobs was this BEFORE 9/11. They still are, not because "the old guy's" sold you down the river after 9/11, but because YOU IDIOTS KEEP COMING TO WORK FOR THOSE WAGES!!
5. Gen X-er's spent their times in the regionals (for the most part) just trying to get their time as fast as possible and GET OUT. There were VERY few who ever got involved in the MEC or actually tried to improve their contract and make a change.

So, sorry bub, but I sat there and watched what happened as someone who was born well after the baby boomers but well before generation X, trying to get involved to help change things, then frustrated because the actions of the people around me didn't match with the actions of a group that management would actually worry about.

Continental, American, United, USAirways- every pilot group in the industry bent over the table instead of shutting things down. And yet you blame Gen X?

Granted, I'm angry about this, too (read my threads from about that time, I believe they should have walked off their jobs rather than agree to those draconian cuts and pension grabs).

It wasn't ALPA's fault either- it was the pilots fault for ratifying their contract in BK, and approving this mess. ALPA was directed by it's membership, which clearly wanted to accept the lower pay rather than the unemployment check- but at least airline pay would have remained high enough that would have made the airline industry lucrative and rebuildable.

In that, you're missing a key concept:

ALPA National CAN block a ratification vote. Check your ALPA rules handbook, buddy, the current ALPA President has to sign off on any T.A. They could very well have blocked it and said NO. They didn't because the senior pilots controlled ALPA National. Period.

While in contract negotiations at ASA, I had a Delta pilot preach to me the value of "raising the bar" so they could build upon it for higher pay. Even then, our old 70 seat rate was HIGHER than their accepted 90 seat Delta rate. And now they are all excited because they got a smidgen of a raise to merge with NWA???

Correct.

Maybe your argument is regarding the RJ's and what we have accepted to fly them for.

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! And it's a valid gripe.

Nobody else wanted them, or the pilot groups associated with them. After Comair and ASA were purchased by Delta, a STAPLE would have fixed the whole mess- But No. We regional pukes were just a bunch of undertrained, undereducated cowboys that didn't have the skill or the polish to fit in with the "Big Boys''.

Again, it was a *JOINT* fu*kup, talk to Occam more for a pretty neutral view on what happened.

I was 3/4th's of the way done with an aviation degree when all this happened, and far too deep in the mess to change career paths.

That's the most bullsh*t thing you've said all day. People change career paths ALL THE TIME, even up to their senior year.

If I was still in college and saw this, I'd IMMEDIATELY bail for another career. MUCH easier to do while you're still young enough to have roommates, no wife and kids, etc, trust me.

I didn't influence, nor did many of my college age Gen Xer's influence, the events that transpired after 9/11. For those that want someone to blame, pilot wise, look in the mirror for some clarity.

Bullsh*t. BULLLL SH*T.

EVERY time one of you takes one one of those crappy $16K a year jobs. EVERY time one of you pays for training. EVERY time one of you shortcuts the system as it has existed for 20 years, you dig your own hole.

The problem is that you're too young and arrogant to believe that you could *POSSIBLY* be part of the problem, much less publicly acknowledge that FACT.

For now, I- like many other Gen Xer's, are simply trying to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit. Many of us aren't putting up with it and bailing to other career paths.

Exactly my point. Instead of fighting to improve it, you're bailing.

Classic Gen-X. "If I can't have it my way, I'll take my toys and go home".

You want change- write your MEC's and explain to them you are willing to shut your airline down, start over, and move on to raise the pay grades.

WRONG ANSWER. Again, you don't know enough about the industry and the political ramifications of even having this discussion in the open.

The MEC's are the ones who are going to get penalized the hardest. Starting a movement like this requires a lot of QB-type meetings between people who are willing to get involved and QUIETLY arrange it, behind the scenes.

A successful SOS would be a large surprise to both management AND your coworkers who weren't "in the know" (F/A's, mechanics, etc) and wouldn't require very long to get the point across (3-5 days would do it).

Passengers would scream, but they'd go right back to flying as soon as it was available, thus jeopardizing NO ONE'S paycheck except for that few days and a few carriers that were on the brink of bankruptcy anyway, although MOST of those are going to eliminate themselves in short order anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see every contract in America become ammendable at the same time, and EVERYONE propose the same pay rates for every aircraft, Pre 9/11. Force management to work to save the money, but put the pilots on a level playing field.

That's been suggested several times before. Even with identical amendable dates, there's no rule that says you all get to go out at the same time and, in fact, the NLRB would NEVER allow that to occur.

Things like this are what make me believe you've never actually served in upper-echelon union leadership. You're unfamiliar with how the process actually works during negotiations.

So far, I'd have to say that American is the only airline showing spine- those guys get my fullest respect! Everybody else just bitches.

What are YOU doing about it?

Nice rant, but the demise of the career YOU THOUGHT you were going to have rests not only on your shoulders, but the shoulders of every other pilot who takes those low-paying jobs and/or PFT's as well as the "old guys" who sold out Scope as well as the pilots who control ALPA National during that critical time after 9/11 (mostly those "old guys") as well as ALPA for failing to take initiatives to reinstate pensions rather than advance age 65 with no fences or protections (mostly those "old guys").

There's plenty of blame to go around. Question is: what are YOU going to actively get out there and DO? No internet b*tching, actually DO something to help?

If you feel that strongly, maybe YOU should organize the National SOS...

 

[JumpersAway]

Too much to quote above, so here she goes:

While you have many interesting, and good points, I still strongly disagree. Personally, I'd rather be flying a turboprop, rather than a shinny new RJ to build my time. Perhaps the reason that so many Gen Xer's are flying the RJ is because that is the only thing left any more. It's an option by default, not by choice. I wish ASA flew nothing but Brazillias- and Delta flew the jets, but someone up the pipe from me decided it wasn't to be. And it wasn't a Gen Xer.

What have I done to help? I cared enough about things to put forth effort to voice my concerns and opinions to my MEC/LEC durring the ratification of our own contract. I voted to ensure that our contract was one of the best in the regional industry. I also have a file on hand full of letters in Herndon, VA. (even if it is the circular one)

You are correct, I haven't served in the upper echelon of my pilot union. Perhaps I should- perhaps I will. Would I get the respect needed from my peers at the Legacy carriers to accomplish what I really want- NOPE!

You want to fix the problem- Brand scope, or even better: staple commuter carrier seniority lists to their respective carrier.

Why should those that bleed the most to improve the industry stand the least to gain? Until there is some reason to hang it out on the line there will be little improvement in the way things are NOW.

Personally, I feel that if an airline goes Tango Uniform while raising the bar, the pilots should be evenly distributed and sloted, by seniority, into the remaining carriers. If you knew you would have another job with comperable work rules and pay, wouldn't you be a little more daring and brave in upping the bar. I sure would.

I did bleed the same as those that went through the paycuts and losses after 9-11. Although it was as a son, rather than a pilot, the families bled the same. Our whole family, like many others, bore the brunt of things.

Believe me, as the son of a captain at a legacy- there have been many a discussion in my household regarding flying RJ's. But when it gets down to it, it ain't Gen X that totes the bill and caused the meltdown. I sure didn't vote to give up scope.

Also, Woerth approved what the pilots had agreed to accept. His signature (ALPA's Signature) was merely a formal acceptance of the proposals sent upward from below. People bitch about ALPA going against it's membership regarding age 60. Could you imagine the uproar if ALPA blocked the pilot approved concessions, and thus dumped the pilot group on the street with no jobs.

 

[Lear70]

Too much to quote above, so here she goes:

While you have many interesting, and good points, I still strongly disagree. Personally, I'd rather be flying a turboprop, rather than a shinny new RJ to build my time. Perhaps the reason that so many Gen Xer's are flying the RJ is because that is the only thing left any more. It's an option by default, not by choice.

The third choice that no one wants to accept is "refuse to fly ANYTHING at those wages".

I did. So did many others. We built our time elsewhere in decent-paying jobs out of self-respect.

Until people are willing to STOP TAKING THE POVERTY-LEVEL JOBS, you will get NO sympathy from me. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.

I wish ASA flew nothing but Brazillias- and Delta flew the jets, but someone up the pipe from me decided it wasn't to be. And it wasn't a Gen Xer.

Again, you missed how it WAS partly the fault of the Gen X group who screwed up your chances of single-list.

History's a b*tch, can't get around the facts from people who were there. I know Occam from these boards and have yet to hear him *drastically* skew the truth on this subject. He admits to guilt on both sides of the aisle (which includes the pilots who were negotiating on behalf of the regional carriers) and I believe him.

What have I done to help? I cared enough about things to put forth effort to voice my concerns and opinions to my MEC/LEC durring the ratification of our own contract. I voted to ensure that our contract was one of the best in the regional industry. I also have a file on hand full of letters in Herndon, VA. (even if it is the circular one)

That's a great start, good for you. Seriously.

You are correct, I haven't served in the upper echelon of my pilot union. Perhaps I should- perhaps I will. Would I get the respect needed from my peers at the Legacy carriers to accomplish what I really want- NOPE!

You won't know until you really try, although I agree, the top bears more responsibility to initiate change than the bottom, simply because their position allows them to more aggressively influence their peers who control ALPA. Note, I said MORE responsibility, not ALL of it.

You want to fix the problem- Brand scope, or even better: staple commuter carrier seniority lists to their respective carrier.

Correct. But you can't expect the senior people at the top to take ALL the financial and QOL hit to accomplish that.

Why should those that bleed the most to improve the industry stand the least to gain?

Whoa. Stop. You're making an important point here.

You just said that the people who would bleed the most (the senior pilots who will have to negotiate the majority of these changes) will stand the least to gain (by gaining a single seniority list).

That is 100% correct. A single seniority list won't help senior pilots, at least, not in their lifetime. It would, however, immediately bring up the bottom end (the regional pilots) into substantially-increased Quality of Life, likely increased raises, and guaranteed flow-through into a Legacy carrier.

The bar for the senior pilots would actually become HARDER to negotiate upwards when the company has to spend MORE of the money allocated for the pilot group on the most junior segment of the group.

I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, by ANY means. I AGREE WITH YOU that this needs to happen.

You and other Gen X'ers simply need to understand the COST of this change WILL be borne on the backs of the senior pilots and part of what they can negotiate for themselves will now have to be re-allocated to a junior segment.

That's a hard pill to swallow for many people within 10 years of retirement.

Until there is some reason to hang it out on the line there will be little improvement in the way things are NOW.

Correct. Now, start thinking politically, because that's the only way to accomplish anything...

HOW DO YOU GET EVERYONE ELSE TO AGREE THAT YOUR SOLUTION WILL BENEFIT EVERYONE. AND I MEAN *EVERYONE*?

Come up with a full plan, including integration timelines, counter-arguments to defeat the nay-sayers, get your MEC on board and the MEC's of several other regionals, present the resolutions, and FIGHT for it.

Share it here or via email with me if you like; I'll help you flesh it out and move forward.

All changes starts with the idea of ONE person, finds like-minded people, formulates a PLAN and then follows through with EXECUTION.

Everything else is just rhetoric.

Personally, I feel that if an airline goes Tango Uniform while raising the bar, the pilots should be evenly distributed and sloted, by seniority, into the remaining carriers. If you knew you would have another job with comperable work rules and pay, wouldn't you be a little more daring and brave in upping the bar. I sure would.

Absolutely, but a national seniority list has other problems we've discussed ad-nauseum.

I did bleed the same as those that went through the paycuts and losses after 9-11. Although it was as a son, rather than a pilot, the families bled the same. Our whole family, like many others, bore the brunt of things.

Not quite. I'm a 3rd generation pilot as well, son of a retired 23+ year USAirways pilot who has a laughably-small pension.

I've also been terminated from a Major because of "fighting the good fight".

It's never, ever the same to be the actual person it's happening to, even if you're closely related. Trust me on that; I've seen both sides now.

Believe me, as the son of a captain at a legacy- there have been many a discussion in my household regarding flying RJ's. But when it gets down to it, it ain't Gen X that totes the bill and caused the meltdown. I sure didn't vote to give up scope.

Actually, it's Gen X that will "tote the bill" because it's Gen X who will be required to fix it.

There's certainly no need for the people who gave up Scope to fight for change; they got theirs, and will be retiring in the next 7-10 years, age 65 change notwithstanding.

The senior people in the next 10 years will be the "in between" group between the Baby Boomers and Gen X.

You're going to have to fight to make it worth their while.

Also, Woerth approved what the pilots had agreed to accept. His signature (ALPA's Signature) was merely a formal acceptance of the proposals sent upward from below.

Incorrect. He had the power of veto. True, that it hadn't been used in recent decades, but he had the power to do it and ALPA National chose not to fight that fight.

The fat cats at the top were too afraid of losing what they had, and now it's happening anyway as more and more carriers start to move away from ALPA.

People bitch about ALPA going against it's membership regarding age 60. Could you imagine the uproar if ALPA blocked the pilot approved concessions, and thus dumped the pilot group on the street with no jobs.

Who said they'd be dumped on the street with no jobs if ALPA had blocked the airline's concessionary contracts?

Who are you to say the company would have shut down or liquidated? The government was already in major bail-out mode; who's to say they wouldn't have obtained better conditions by withholding services from a few carriers for even a brief period of time when the government was trying to stabilize the industry?

I will go to my grave believing that the immediate monthly salary cuts *might* have been reduced SOME, but that the PENSIONS could have been retained by sticking to their guns. The U.S. government understands why pensions are important, especially Senators and Congressmen, and could have been much more aggressively fought for, successfully in my opinion.

A lack of a pension in this industry just reduced your career earnings by over 20%. Combined with the wage cuts of 40% or so at most carriers, and you just lost over 60% of your LIFETIME CAREER EARNINGS.

That's unacceptable, and we ALL should have walked. I was an RJ Captain at the time, 29 years old, freshly furloughed from a 727 CA position and furloughed AGAIN off the RJ for the 2nd time in the same year, had just gotten back in the seat, and would STILL have walked if everyone else had.

ALPA's refusal to fight that fight when it was MOST needed, will likely be recorded in the history books as "the beginning of the end" of the pilot profession.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!?

Did you pay for your training too? excuse me while Iuke:

 

[SMOE]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

Hey A$$hole, life goes on. T-ball games? Dance recitals? I'm not even going to waste anymore electrons on a moron of your magnitude...

 

[JumpersAway]

Did you pay for your training too? excuse me while Iuke:

No, I got a degree and some ratings. I learned to fly and got my training in a beat up catastrophe of an airplane that was good for on the job training regarding engine failures and fires. Does that make you feel better?

The happiest day of my life was parking that turd for the final time and walking away to start my ground school at a regional- because that is all there was that was hiring- by default.

That's probably why I am so serious about it and appreciative for a schedule, and compentant maintenance. Oh, and climate control, a cockpit door, and a lav are nice too. And the pay is better.

 

[Morning Wood]

Hey A$$hole, life goes on. T-ball games? Dance recitals? I'm not even going to waste anymore electrons on a moron of your magnitude...

Life goes on huh? You obviously don't have kids because your priorities are out of whack. How about something maybe you can understand like missing a shift or not getting back to class while on probation? Or how about missing a funeral or other event like that? Life goes on. Pound it up your ass.

 

[FlyinGuy]

If you really think a national senority list




Sorry for the interruption, but I had to go back and look at SMOEs' avitar!!!




is the way to go, you are an idiot.

 

[Lear70]

The happiest day of my life was parking that turd for the final time and walking away to start my ground school at a regional- because that is all there was that was hiring- by default.

Bullsh*t.

There are ALWAYS Cessna 310/414 jobs or King Air or Citation/Learjet jobs that are hiring people.

Kalitta hires Lear F/O's with as little as 500 hours total time. Has for years. Pays twice as much as a regional.

You didn't have to go to a regional, it was just the easy way out. Just call it what it is.

Life goes on huh? You obviously don't have kids because your priorities are out of whack.

I have kids and, yes, life DOES go on.

You make sacrifices for your ethics and the things you believe in. I'm doing it right now. It sucks, but I'm still living my life, enjoying family when I can, fighting management for my job back and then continuing to fight for a decent contract.

You make your choices in life. If missing one of your kid's t-ball game is more important than shoring up what's left of your career, I'd say you have your priorities out of whack.

Do you want to miss your kid's entire life? Of course not. Are you going to make sacrifices to better your career and your profession?

Or are you one of those people who can't be bothered to show up for a BoD meeting or a rally or a picketing event because your kid has a dance recital?

And people wonder why this career is in the toilet. Everyone just wants everything to magically get better without doing any work to make it that way. The sense of entitlement is STAGGERING...

 

[Morning Wood]

Bullsh*t.

There are ALWAYS Cessna 310/414 jobs or King Air or Citation/Learjet jobs that are hiring people.

Kalitta hires Lear F/O's with as little as 500 hours total time. Has for years. Pays twice as much as a regional.

You didn't have to go to a regional, it was just the easy way out. Just call it what it is.

I have kids and, yes, life DOES go on.

You make sacrifices for your ethics and the things you believe in. I'm doing it right now. It sucks, but I'm still living my life, enjoying family when I can, fighting management for my job back and then continuing to fight for a decent contract.

You make your choices in life. If missing one of your kid's t-ball game is more important than shoring up what's left of your career, I'd say you have your priorities out of whack.

Do you want to miss your kid's entire life? Of course not. Are you going to make sacrifices to better your career and your profession?

Or are you one of those people who can't be bothered to show up for a BoD meeting or a rally or a picketing event because your kid has a dance recital?

And people wonder why this career is in the toilet. Everyone just wants everything to magically get better without doing any work to make it that way. The sense of entitlement is STAGGERING...

This has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with taking a look around and realizing that we are all on a slippery slope to nowhere good. Airlines that just recently came out of bankruptcy are reporting record losses, oil is $120 a barrel and climbing, and no less than 5 airlines have shut the doors in the past month. Frankly, those of us who are still employeed should be damn glad. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the "take one for the team" mentailty that exists on here, but this isn't 1960.

I'm all for doing the work to make things better, but in this current state I fail to see how a one-day walk out that would cetainly be the death of a couple more carriers or burning the entire industry to the ground as some are suggesting is going to help me, you, or anyone else. Things are worse now I believe than after 9/11 and people are in denial or think if they screw Ornstein or Steenland that things will get better. The difference this time is that that with oil being what it is, there aren't going to be new LCC's to work for until you get recalled.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

I love reading threads like this because it illustrates the primary misconception that many workers share. A company's singular objective is to maximize shareholder wealth. That's it, nothing more. When workers realize that companies only view them as necessary expenses and not as assets they will just aquiesce and slip into the warm bath that is the numb, morphine-like confines of the Amerikan dream. They don't care about your job, why should you?

Want to share in a corporation's good fortune borne on the backs of its employees? Buy stock. Otherwise stop whining and just assume you've lost and get back to American Idol, fast food and watching millionaires move an inflated ball around a field (that you paid for) on weekends.

Ahhhh....feels soooo good!

PS: The only thing that will change this mutha is armed civil insurrection and we all know that it will NEVER happen. :uzi: But just in case one starts, I'm in!

 

[Morning Wood]

isn't MCI a skywest domicile or is it a mx base?

MCI is not a crew domicile and is only a line mx city. What you guys need to understand is that we have had guys kicked off United airplanes by offering to take a cockpit J/S when flights are full. Hence the directive from the J/S coordinator.

P.S. United pilots have trips with scheduled deadheads on the Express Carriers all the time. This is nothing new.

So if you had a buddy who was returning home with his wife, you wouldn't take a FA jumpseat to get her on?

Dude, go over to the majors thread and read the "I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down" thread. Not only would he not do what you are asking, people like him are suggesting a one-day walk out. How many people that commute are going to up the creek trying to get to work? Good job of taking one for the team and helping the "brotherhood"

 

[Lear70]

This has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with taking a look around and realizing that we are all on a slippery slope to nowhere good.

You're right, we ARE on a slippery slope to nowhere good, but not in the way you're preaching.

Fuel prices have always gone up. Lease prices have always gone up. Maintenance costs, gate and counter leases at airports, landing fees, everything has always gone up with inflation.

But we're supposed to sit back and watch our wages continually decrease or not even increase with inflation? In every other business we pass that cost onto the customer. Here, people like you allow management to pass that cost onto US. Why is that? Fear? or Apathy?

I submit that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Airlines that just recently came out of bankruptcy are reporting record losses,

No, they're not. Check your facts, buddy. They're posting losses, yes, due to increased fuel prices and their refusal to raise FARES to OFFSET their costs, but they are NOWHERE NEAR "record" losses, and are recoverable by the end of the year if the industry would raise fares across the board.

oil is $120 a barrel and climbing, and no less than 5 airlines have shut the doors in the past month.

Fuel has only been above $100 for a few months. Those airlines didn't shut their doors because of fuel prices alone; those airlines shut their doors because they were unable to compete, in each airline's case, for different reasons.

Frankly, those of us who are still employeed should be damn glad. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the "take one for the team" mentailty that exists on here, but this isn't 1960.

And that's why you will NEVER, EVER see pay and QOL equal to that of the 1960's.

1. You're just "glad to have a job" instead of realizing that YOU ARE A NECESSARY PART OF THE EQUATION FOR COMPANIES TO MAKE MONEY. If they don't employ pilots (and mechanics, and gate agents, and f/a's, etc), THEY won't make any money. Should your V.P. of Flight Ops, CFO, and CEO just be "glad to have a job"? Grow a pair, for Christ's sake.

2. You believe somehow that now is different than the 60's in terms of being paid a fare wage or a wage that increases at least equal to inflation. Why is it different? The U.S. is still the U.S. Our constitution is still in place. The only thing that has changed is that people like you refuse to stand up for themselves.

Our founding fathers would be ashamed.

I'm all for doing the work to make things better, but in this current state I fail to see how a one-day walk out that would cetainly be the death of a couple more carriers or burning the entire industry to the ground as some are suggesting is going to help me, you, or anyone else.

OK, remember you said that, I'm going to make a point here.

ONE day. ONE day of airlines not flying is going to "certainly be the death of a couple more carriers"...

What happens when there's a snowstorm in JFK that shuts down 90%+ of jetBlue flights? Oh, that's right, the very next year they post the SMALLEST loss of any carrier and are better-positioned cash-wise than ANY other carrier (on a percentage of cash flow basis).

What happens when AA grounds over 30% of their domestic fleet and strand thousands upon thousands of passengers? Oh, that's right, they still have record-high load factors and go right back to doing business the next day.

Things are worse now I believe than after 9/11 and people are in denial or think if they screw Ornstein or Steenland that things will get better.

Worse than after 9/11? Wait a minute, you just said above that one day of not-operating would "certainly be the death of a couple carriers". If memory serves (and I was sitting watching the senate hearings while NOTHING was flying in the skies except military aircraft), we were almost a WEEK without a SINGLE COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT operating in U.S. airspace, and I don't seem to remember it being "the death of a couple carriers".

The teachers in Michigan walked off their job, en masse, and went right back to teaching class when their dispute was settled BECAUSE KIDS STILL NEEDED TO BE IN SCHOOL.

The New York transit workers walked off the job, en masse, and the system went right back to functioning as soon as they went back, BECAUSE PEOPLE STILL NEEDED TO TRAVEL.

If the aviation world shuts down (again) for a few days, PEOPLE WILL STILL NEED TO TRAVEL and the system will go right back to functioning.

You're WAY out there, my friend. It's alarmist, and it's bullsh*t. The U.S. Air Carrier business isn't going anywhere. Would the public be angry? Absolutely. Would they support us? They don't support (or care) about us now, all they care about is their $39 fare to MCO. Would they return to fly? Absolutely; they do it every time there's a large shutdown of a carrier for weather or maintenance.

And as far as this being worse than after 9/11, you're smoking crack. THOSE were record losses. People were AFRAID to fly. That has nothing to do with a nation-wide SOS.

Like I said before, I don't think it would work, and you proved my point nicely: "There are too many weak sisters who would still show up to work and undermine those who DO have a backbone."

This industry is frakked. It will never be what it was, and I, for one, am sick and tired of fighting for myself and my fellow pilots when they can't even be bothered to fight for themselves.

/rant

 

[ACT700]

The third choice that no one wants to accept is "refuse to fly ANYTHING at those wages".

I did. So did many others. We built our time elsewhere in decent-paying jobs out of self-respect.

Until people are willing to STOP TAKING THE POVERTY-LEVEL JOBS, you will get NO sympathy from me. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
...

Well said! I'm with you 100% on this one.

All you (regional guys) have to do to gain some credibility is say "no" to those conditions.
We all know that won't happen, because there's always someone who'll do it for less.
Remember, I once had 400 hours, too, yet I somehow got past that without having to live on foodstamps.

 

[Lear70]

MCI is not a crew domicile and is only a line mx city. What you guys need to understand is that we have had guys kicked off United airplanes by offering to take a cockpit J/S when flights are full. Hence the directive from the J/S coordinator.

P.S. United pilots have trips with scheduled deadheads on the Express Carriers all the time. This is nothing new.

Oh, so you're a regional guy. That explains a lot...

A few regional guys I know get it and are fighting on behalf of the pilots but, and I know this from experience, they're fighting a losing battle at the regionals because of the pilots who are flying there. Most of you don't have the stomach or the backbone for a real fight.

Unfortunately, guys like you are the guys who are going on to Majors later in life, thus the Majors will eventually be full of guys who have no stomach or backbone for a fight and will just sit back and take whatever they're handed the rest of their career.

Congratulations, and welcome to a shelled-out version of this once-noble profession. You've earned it.

Dude, go over to the majors thread and read the "I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down" thread.

"Dude"... this IS the "I say we burn the whole industry down" thread. Situational awareness anyone?

Not only would he not do what you are asking, people like him are suggesting a one-day walk out. How many people that commute are going to up the creek trying to get to work? Good job of taking one for the team and helping the "brotherhood"

Ummm... hint:

If the industry ever DID a system-wide SOS, who would be commuting to work?

Oh yeah, that's right. YOU would still be going to work, along with the rest of the pilots who have no backbone.

Hint #2: It's a SYSTEM-WIDE STOPPAGE OF SERVICE. NO ONE goes to work. NO ONE commutes until the SOS is over. Get it yet?

For the love of Pete...

Kinda scary that this basic concept is so foreign that you are talking about going to work during a work stoppage. Basic cognitive skills ARE required of an airline pilot.

 

[pipe]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

Hey Wood-

You wanna talk short-sighted? I'm more concerned with being compensated in shuch a way that "little Johnny" can go to college. I'll work the damn t-ball out on my own.

PIPE

 

[Lear70]

The whole conversation is a moot point, anyway.

#1. It's illegal.

#2. It's illegal.

#3. There's no way you'd get everyone on board. This thread is proof: the days of pilots banding together for the common good of the profession has gone the way of the dinosaur.

This country was founded on the principle that the American Worker would always stand up for themselves when needed. There's few left who will - they're too scared to lose what little they have.

Where's that deadhorse emoticon? :deadhorse:

 

[Morning Wood]

You're right, we ARE on a slippery slope to nowhere good, but not in the way you're preaching.

Fuel prices have always gone up. Lease prices have always gone up. Maintenance costs, gate and counter leases at airports, landing fees, everything has always gone up with inflation.

But we're supposed to sit back and watch our wages continually decrease or not even increase with inflation? In every other business we pass that cost onto the customer. Here, people like you allow management to pass that cost onto US. Why is that? Fear? or Apathy?

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask virtually every labor group who “allowed” costs to be passed on via concessions in the past 5 years.

No, they're not. Check your facts, buddy. They're posting losses, yes, due to increased fuel prices and their refusal to raise FARES to OFFSET their costs, but they are NOWHERE NEAR "record" losses, and are recoverable by the end of the year if the industry would raise fares across the board.

Okay, so not record losses. How about disturbing? You think Delta’s $6.39 billion loss or NW’s $4.1 billion loss is as simple to turn around by raising ticket prices? American’s fuel costs increased 45% from the past quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago. Do you think a 45% increase in airfares is going to happen across the board? And that is assuming the oil doesn’t go any higher than it is and until today it has been going up almost $2 a day.

Fuel has only been above $100 for a few months. Those airlines didn't shut their doors because of fuel prices alone; those airlines shut their doors because they were unable to compete, in each airline's case, for different reasons.

Re-read my post. I never suggested that fuel alone was the death knell for the ones who have gone out of business or ones who might. The price of oil has doubled in the past year. How long it’s been over $100 a barrel is not the issue. F9 just filed BK and now YX is furloughing pilots. Do those sound like airlines who are in a position to compete and withstand a self-inflicted kick in the balls?

ONE day. ONE day of airlines not flying is going to "certainly be the death of a couple more carriers"...

What happens when there's a snowstorm in JFK that shuts down 90%+ of jetBlue flights? Oh, that's right, the very next year they post the SMALLEST loss of any carrier and are better-positioned cash-wise than ANY other carrier (on a percentage of cash flow basis).

One airline or hub shutting down for a day is NOT the same thing as the entire system shutting down. A one day walk-out would likely take 3-4 to recover from because of all the crews who aren’t in place. It took almost a week to go back to a full schedule post 9/11. But I guess if you’re losing $300 million a quarter, another $10 million is not a big deal, right?

What happens when AA grounds over 30% of their domestic fleet and strand thousands upon thousands of passengers? Oh, that's right, they still have record-high load factors and go right back to doing business the next day.

They lost tens of millions of dollars over the 4-5 days (twice) the airplanes were grounded. Record high load factors? Because of all the people they had still running out of their ears that could not be rebooked. It was not business as usual.

Worse than after 9/11? Wait a minute, you just said above that one day of not-operating would "certainly be the death of a couple carriers". If memory serves (and I was sitting watching the senate hearings while NOTHING was flying in the skies except military aircraft), we were almost a WEEK without a SINGLE COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT operating in U.S. airspace, and I don't seem to remember it being "the death of a couple carriers".

And how many carriers ultimately ended up bankrupt even after being given government loans? How many hundreds of thousands of airline jobs have been lost in the last 7 years? I’m sorry. The industry has not fully recovered and some of the smaller carriers who have been losing money would not survive another shot to the head. The executives will still get their payouts while many of us are kicking turds down the road.

If the industry ever DID a system-wide SOS, who would be commuting to work?

Oh yeah, that's right. YOU would still be going to work, along with the rest of the pilots who have no backbone.

Hint #2: It's a SYSTEM-WIDE STOPPAGE OF SERVICE. NO ONE goes to work. NO ONE commutes until the SOS is over. Get it yet?

For the love of Pete...

Kinda scary that this basic concept is so foreign that you are talking about going to work during a work stoppage. Basic cognitive skills ARE required of an airline pilot.

I get it just fine and I wasn’t talking about going to work during an SOS. I’m talking about trying to get to work or go home once the SOS is over and it takes several days for everyone to be back up to a full schedule. Good luck.