I must be the STUPID CMR pilot.

[PA44Jockey]

Stupid Comair pilot
I just did a turn today in DAY, and I nearly died. The wx was VFR with no precip., and and a Comair flight was doing a quick turn. So let me ask the great Comair pilot group that dominates this board, why in the hell did he have to be de-iced? Was it his goal to piss off the personal who's time he wasted? The glycol wasted, and the money wasted? Or delayed the pax, and pissing them off as well? Is it your goal to do all of things in the face of Mother Delta to show them how great a pilot group you are? Waste it all away and watch the vultures come in and take you job


I don't know how things are dealt with over there with your Pilot Group, but let me fill you in on how we do things over here at Comair. I'll first start off by telling you flat out that I was the FO on that flight. I am a very junior FO as well. However, as Junior as I am I will tell you that I had every reason to advise the Captain that we needed de-iced that day. We flew in from CVG that morning and VFR conditions didn't exist until about 15 miles from the field. On decent through IMC in freezing weather, there is a tendancy for ICE to accumulate on various surfaces of an aircraft. Yes it was a QUICK turn (No time for Ice to melt) and during my walk around the aircraft had various surfaces covered in Ice. I don't know about your aircraft over there, but not every surface of our aircraft have de-icing or anti-icing capabilities. That day the Nose of the aircraft, the Entire leading edge of the Winglets, The windshield wipers and the leading edge of the flaps had ICE accumlation on them. Those specific areas were hit with some Type I and we were on our way. Out of the gate to OFF the ground was 10 minutes including the deice proceedure. We arrived SAFELY and ONTIME with our Passengers smiling back in CVG.

I do believe YOUR Pilot Group is probably having a hard time reading this with how you just represented them. Sorry to the rest of your Pilot Group, but I'm glad you work for them and not along side me.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I thought you were the SkyWest dork??? Ah, I can't keep up around here. THANKS COMAIR!!!

 

[BRA]

"From Downtown!!!!!!!" -Marv Albert

 

[PudgeyDingus]

"leading edge of the flaps...." are you kidding?

 

[Mookie]

No, he probably isn't kidding about that. I've found "mystery ice" there many times on walk arounds. In fact, we found it there on my aircraft checkout a few years ago on the walk around. The examiner used it as a great example of where ice can be hidden fairly easily.

Mookie

 

[wolfpackpilot]

With little to no experience these days in the cockpit (sorry kids, 3000hrs in a senaca fartin around FL doesnt count), I'd rather see these monkeys de-ice when they dont have too.

 

[NYCPilot]

Damn. There's so much bravado here. If the aircraft was iced up according to his description, whats the big deal about getting de-iced. I'm sure the folks inside the cabin don't mind any delay that this procedure entails.

kudos for speaking up and taking a stand PA44.

 

[imacdog]

With little to no experience these days in the cockpit (sorry kids, 3000hrs in a senaca fartin around FL doesnt count), I'd rather see these monkeys de-ice when they dont have too.

How much experience does it take? See ice on the airframe, call for deice. Not that hard.

 

[JPAustin]

Not to mention...

...other things like say, active frost which can occur in VFR conditions or an airfoil surface below freezing with a temp/dewpoint spread closer than 3 degrees C and converging.

Seriously, was there really some "expert" ranting and raving about some crew deicing when said "expert" felt there was no need to? I can understand and laugh at the summer time stories (or exagerations) of receiving Type IV because of forecast enroute icing, but who really gives a crap if its VFR out, you don't have to deice, but the crew at the next gate feels the need to for whatever reason? Sheesh (golly!).

 

[Jack Mehoff]

With little to no experience these days in the cockpit (sorry kids, 3000hrs in a senaca fartin around FL doesnt count), I'd rather see these monkeys de-ice when they dont have too.

so with soooo much more experience wolfpack can you explain why you and your fellow corporate chums mannaged to crash left and right last winter on icing and instument approach issues?

To me I would rather trust a "kid" (with 3000 hrs of FL seneca time) that flys part 121 opps 4 days a week following procedures. Then an over a over confident jack @ss that flys once or twice a month in a jet and thinks hes god.

 

[finnjl]

Type IV because of forecast enroute icing, but who really gives a crap if its VFR out, you don't have to deice


VFR or current wx conditions to some extent really has no bearing on deicing an aircraft...if the plane has ice on it, it must be de-iced. Most 121 operators use the clean aircraft concept. So in some scenerios the plane could ice up enroute land at an airport that has good weather and require de-icing.

 

[DrewBlows]

Seriously, was there really some "expert" ranting and raving about some crew deicing when said "expert" felt there was no need to? I can understand and laugh at the summer time stories (or exagerations) of receiving Type IV because of forecast enroute icing, but who really gives a crap if its VFR out, you don't have to deice, but the crew at the next gate feels the need to for whatever reason? Sheesh (golly!).

Heh heh, yeah. Check this out.

 

[BRA]

3000 hours of seneca time is pretty good, i got 375 in a seneca in florida and look at me now.

 

[h25b]

To me I would rather trust a "kid" (with 3000 hrs of FL seneca time) that flys part 121 opps 4 days a week following procedures. Then an over a over confident jack @ss that flys once or twice a month in a jet and thinks hes god.

Not taking sides here, but please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to compare the demands of corporate and airline operations. Having done both I can honestly say that the corporate side is much more demanding. I saw just as many cowboys not following procedures in the airlines as in corporate and if you think flying in and out of the same 7000 ft. runways daily is more difficult than not knowing where in the world you are going to go from one minute to the next you're out of your mind.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

How much experience does it take? See ice on the airframe, call for deice. Not that hard.

Because if you have 5000 hours and experience flying a Gulfstream like he does, you become an expert on how to fly with the ice still on the airplane. That is until you run off of the runway somewhere.

 

[mckpickle]

Well STUPID COMAIR PILOT. Let me just say I'd much rather me and my family be on your airplane than on some idiots who feels the need to question something another crew is doing. Good job and F that guy!

 

[8HourPilot]

Not taking sides here, but please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to compare the demands of corporate and airline operations. Having done both I can honestly say that the corporate side is much more demanding. I saw just as many cowboys not following procedures in the airlines as in corporate and if you think flying in and out of the same 7000 ft. runways daily is more difficult than not knowing where in the world you are going to go from one minute to the next you're out of your mind.

Corporate ops = more demanding. I agree (having also been involved in both). Corporate ops following the rules......aka part 91........right man.

 

[8HourPilot]

the stupid comair pilot was wmuflyguy forsure, and he's right let me tell ya

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Not taking sides here, but please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to compare the demands of corporate and airline operations. Having done both I can honestly say that the corporate side is much more demanding. I saw just as many cowboys not following procedures in the airlines as in corporate and if you think flying in and out of the same 7000 ft. runways daily is more difficult than not knowing where in the world you are going to go from one minute to the next you're out of your mind.

Also having done both, I haven't seen half as many cowboys at my airline as I did flying corporate.

 

[h25b]

Skyboy's obviously someone who'd argue that the sky wasn't blue just for the sport of it.

Since he can't understand the point here's one more try. IDIOTS EXIST IN EVERY FACET OF AVIATION. It's ridiculous to try and submit there are greater concentrations in one area or another.

But I'm sure he'll be back along telling me I'm wrong somehow.

 

[8HourPilot]

Agreed they are everywhere, but you have to admit, the 91 world is something else.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Skyboy's obviously someone who'd argue that the sky wasn't blue just for the sport of it.

Since he can't understand the point here's one more try. IDIOTS EXIST IN EVERY FACET OF AVIATION. It's ridiculous to try and submit there are greater concentrations in one area or another.

But I'm sure he'll be back along telling me I'm wrong somehow.

I don't really need to argue it, the accident rates of corporate aviation versus 121 speak for themselves.

 

[standaman]

Whoever questions what another crew does to keep the flight safe is an idiot.

 

[AvroSucks]

Don't You Ever Think About Deicing My Gin And Tonic. I Don't Know How I Would Live.

 

[Mercury]

Ah yes the 91 vs 121 thread has been reborn!!!! I like this one almost as much as the ABC vs XYZ airlines arguement which is of course a close second to the my RJ can beat up your RJ discussion. Yes i agree 121 is a highly standardized environment and as i said in other posts my hat is off to the folks in the various training depts for teaching and enforcing these high standards.
Part 91 operators run the gambit from one aircraft owner/operator types that make your pack your own lunch so they can save a nickle, to the Fortune 100 that have FOMs or SOPs that are just as standardized and definitive as a 121 carrier. Especially if your DO is former military or 121. As a matter of fact we have 2 pilots that are former 121 check airmen/examiners.

H25B has sounded off on this subject before and once again he is right on the money...idiots exist in every facet of aviation.... The key is to operate as a professional regardless of whether your flying a Cub, a 'Bus or a Jungle Jet.
I've seen mistakes made by 700 hr fo's as well as guys with 10 years in the same type aircraft, God knows ive made my fair share, the key my friends is to learn from your errors, bank your experiences and mature as a professional
pilot.

DAMM I told myself I wasnt gonna get involved in this anymore

 

[Jack Mahogoff]

Deicing:

It's better to do it and not need it than to need it and not do it.

 

[h25b]

the accident rates of corporate aviation versus 121 speak for themselves.

Yep, they speak for themselves alright. Just not for your side of the arguement...

You obviously want to lump in any average Joe with an airplane as "Corporate" and that's not exactly how it works.

This is from the NBAA web site...

"Aviation safety expert Bob Breiling, whose numbers NBAA relies upon, calculates from NTSB data accident statistics using a more precise approach that allows for “apples-to-apples” comparisons. Breiling defines corporate aircraft as any airplane flown by a professional crew. For these types of operations, the fatal accident rate is 0.014 per 100,000 hours – which is nearly identical to that of the scheduled air carriers (0.012 per 100,000 hours). "

The entire article can be found here...
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/safety/20041130.pdf

Would you like some hot sauce with that crow ??? If you're going to make uneducated, blanket, BS statements at least run a quick web search and get some facts.

The fatal accident rate for "corporate" (my definition, not yours) is .002 higher than scheduled Part 121 operations. Hardly anything to boast about on your part. Especially in light of the fact of the demanding nature of corporate flying. (International, Mountains, Non-Schedules, Long Hours, Short Runways, etc...)

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I don't know how he got his numbers, but what I do know is that I recall at least 3 corporate accidents in the past couple of years where they have failed to deice and people have been killed. Any significant 121 accidents you care to share with us in recent years? I don't recall very many that were pilot error since AAL ran it off the runway in LIT, and that was about 7 years ago. By the way, don't bring back the dead horse about the Pinnacle plane..that wasn't even a 121 flight.

 

[h25b]

I don't know how he got his numbers, but what I do know is that I recall at least 3 corporate accidents in the past couple of years where they have failed to deice and people have been killed. Any significant 121 accidents you care to share with us in recent years? I don't recall very many that were pilot error since AAL ran it off the runway in LIT, and that was about 7 years ago. By the way, don't bring back the dead horse about the Pinnacle plane..that wasn't even a 121 flight.

I know exactly how he gets his numbers. It's called research. He is using a very simple threshold of "any airplane flown by a professional crew"... Even you should be able to figure that out.

And yes, the PCL flight is fair game. Operated by a "professional" crew and would you like me to tell you how many "empty, repositioning" legs we have to do in corporate and can seem to pull off with out impressing each other with the "410 Club" ??? It's a bunch buddy... The only reason it wasn't a 121 flight was because dispatch couldn't figure out how to put 50 unsuspecting, paying, victims on board before the end of the business day...

Who gives a $hit about 3 accidents in recent years ?? Does that override the overall fatal accident rate ? NO..

You were the one that said, "the accident rates of corporate aviation versus 121 speak for themselves" when clearly they don't. The numbers don't BS quite they way you do.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

So no comment on the crashes the last few winters with corporate crews not deicing? Or examples of recent fatal 121 crashes that were pilot error? Come on, your disappointing me. Also, I'm working on a way to disprove your NBAA numbers, just haven't closed the gap yet.