I hate to ask ... Logging KA90/200 right-seat Pt 91 ...

[A Squared]

Good luck explaining your way out of that one in an interview. "How did you log PIC in a KA200 and we see that you didn't have a high alt endorsement???" It won't look good in the future. It's much better to have the proper endorsement for the equipment your flying.

It is probably better to be fully PIC qualified before logging PIC, but it is not a regulatory requirement. The only requirement is to be *rated* in the aircraft, ie: hold a MEL land rating in this case. Personally, I have some reservations about logging PIC when you are not the actual PIC, but that's just my *opinon*, the *fact* is that it is perfectly legal.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I totally agree with you there. And like you, I take a very practical and, maybe, conservative stance on logging PIC. It makes things less hairy in the future.

 

[apcooper]

Just thought of this. Do any of you have two seperate logbooks that are slightly different. One for the PIC time you legally can log and stuff in the remarks section like "Mile high club Baron 58" among other stuff that is solely for a legal requirement and a second logbook for flights that only look good in the eyes of your future employer that are clean and only have PIC time in them as defined as the person responsible for the flight?

 

[Snakum]

Enjoy the ride, sniff the jetA, and quit trying to pad your book.

I write the totals in pencil so I can make changes if I screw up the math, moron. There's always gotta be one nutsack in the bunch, eh?

For everyone else ... thanks for the input. We squared it away last night. If it happens ... ME dual received until ME checkride, PIC on my legs after ME ride and company training, which means be ready for grilling on the aircraft in later interviews. The aircraft manager and left-seat honcho doesn't want it any other way, and I agree there's really no way to legally log anything else, unless I want 100 hours of ME dual, and I'm pretty sure I don't.

Minh

BTW ... the high alt endorsement goes without saying. It's part of the co. training.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Another thing to consider. As per 61.31(g), you better have a high-altitude endorsement to log PIC in either the KA90 or 200. Both are pressurized aircraft and have a service ceiling above 25,000.

So what?

Logging 101. The rules of acting as PIC and the rules of logging PIC are different.

61.31 doesn't have =anything= to do with writing numbers in the PIC column of your logbook while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand. 61.31 has to do with being ultimately responsible for a flight,

Unless 61.51 sends you there, pointing to =any= FAR other than 61.51 is irrelevant to a logging discussion.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

I write the totals in pencil so I can make changes if I screw up the math, moron.

As do most of us, for math errors.

But that is not what you said.

"change it however I need to" = fuzzy math

I do all my totals in pencil anyway, and so I can change it however I need to down the road.

moron

Whatever makes you feel better.

Good luck explaining your way out of that one in an interview.

I have to agree with Workin'Stiff. Let's see, you have 9 hours of Seneca and 100 hours King Air Pic? Ok, lets see your FlightSafety training record. No, don't have one? How about SimCom? No again. How about Simuflite? Ah, Ok. We'll be in touch.

 

[pilotyip]

If you are a low time PIC guy and you show for a job that requires turbin PIC and your log book shows lots of KA time as PIC, without a FSI training program, or your name on an insurance document as a named PIC, you are not really the PIC on a KA. I have run accoss this a couple times during interviews and it is nearly worthless time. As described you are a ride along co-pilot who can legally log PIC because you are MEL rated and it does not require a type. Do you learn something? yes. Should you put it on a resume? probably not.

 

[Snakum]

Thanks Captain H.

If you were looking at it during an interview, would it be appropriate to log it in any way at all? Maybe ten or so hours of ME dual received for the time I am sole manipulator, or working on the high altitude sign off?

Appreciate it.


Minh

 

[Workin'Stiff]

So what?

Logging 101. The rules of acting as PIC and the rules of logging PIC are different.

61.31 doesn't have =anything= to do with writing numbers in the PIC column of your logbook while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand. 61.31 has to do with being ultimately responsible for a flight,

Unless 61.51 sends you there, pointing to =any= FAR other than 61.51 is irrelevant to a logging discussion.

Thanks for the FAR lesson for the day. I didn't find my CFI in a Cracker Jack box, though. Most people that are in Snakum's situation are looking for something bigger and better than the 10 hours or so that they'll get in the KA. It's much easier to keep "interview-friendly" and legal pilot records. It keeps the grey hair count down. Yes, it is perfectly legal to log that time. But it will make your life miserable in an interview.

Snakum, go ahead and log that time once you are properly qualified. This will demonstrate to the interviewers that you have varied experience with these higher performance aircraft. And have fun with it!

 

[Snakum]

What if I logged ten or so hours dual received and then the sole manipulator time after the ME rating, but not add the sole manip time to the totals?

I will be able to keep track of the sole manip time (which is used by this company for promotion to full-time FO or CA) but will not report it as anything at all in the total time on any application to a larger company. That will give me a record of it to show only those local companies who honor that time. As far as the big guys (pilotyip) go ... it wouldn't be reported to them in any way at all, and if they see the actual entries I can show them that it is not included/claimed in any total times.

Sort of like simulator time. I'd have a record of it for when I needed it, but it won't be used for job applications or for ratings.

Would this work?

Minh

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I don't know if I'd do that in my primary logbook. If you want to keep a separate logbook with that time, that's fine. But don't put time in your primary logbook that you don't intend on adding toward the totals at the bottom of the page. You might give the interviewers the impression that your playing games with your logbook.

I would certainly put that time on an application if you've included it in your primary logbook. Just stay away from placing an entry in your logbook but not adding it in at the bottom of the page.

 

[Snakum]

I think I'm just going to do ten hours of ME instruction (logged only when I'm actually flying the thing) and then let someone else have the seat that doesn't care what they log. I've always been ultra conservative with my logbook. I don't even log safety pilot time. And it sounds like I'll drive myself crazy trying to figure out who takes what and who will kick me out of an interview and who won't. Better to let someone else have the seat time.

The ten hours dual will be nice, though.

Minh

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yeah man, and it won't draw any flags at an interview.

Good Luck!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for the FAR lesson for the day.

You're welcome.

Mis-communication. All of us get into the bad habit of just talking about "logging" instead of separating FAA logging from interview logging.

I like the suggestion that gets repeated every now and then about keeping separate "Part 61 PIC" and "Part 1 PIC" columns. It can keep stress down in both directions. After all, while many employers could probably care less about some "Part 61 PIC", some of that "Part 1 PIC" that you might legitimately want to present as experience to a potential employer isn't properly logable under FAA rules.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

Just wondering what it might cost to become the 'fully qualified pic-sometimes-but-gear-slapper-and-button-pusher' in a King air now adays???



PFT?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

In reality, if the MEI flys all the legs in the left seat, you can log it as PIC and DUAL RECEIVED after you get your rating.
You gotta beleive that any MEI in the left seat is logging PIC whenever he's sitting there. When the poop hits the pavement, no matter who is flying, the feds will come down hardest on the MEI, whether the left-seat pilot has 10k hours or 10. That's a pretty darn good reason to log pic as mei.

a friend? of mine is sitting rt seat in a citation, pt 91, logging it as SIC, even though the airplane is typed as a single-pilot airplane, he claims that he can log the time because of the INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS. Last I checked, the Insurance company didn't write the FARs


Another .02 for your use, also, sorry, but I couldn't resist PFT'in...

-CaKe