HR5449 (ATC contract)

[Big Beer Belly]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Moderator reviewed.

 

[unreal]

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

If you think that you can talk to people this way and then point fingers about inflated senses of entitlement, then you're the biggest hypocrite on this board. Yours is nothing beyond a personal attack, and I hope you're outed for it.

 

[smellthejeta]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Dang. Someobody got bent over REAL hard by the bubba known as his major airline employer and is out to dis everyone in his path. I don't care what it says he is in his profile -- I tried to do the USAF flying thing, and would have been VERY happy with it.

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

 

[smellthejeta]

There will be those who want the job at all cost - there are those who've done the ATC as a major, and don't have anything else going. Think of all the folks signing up for PFT to get a job at a regional airline paying a pittance. There will be plenty of people willing to take the job.

I'm not so sure. Back before the big hiring crunch was publicized, I saw a GAO report on the number of students in the CTI programs. There weren't that many. My school, at the time, was fourth largest in terms of graduates, and we had a whopping 40 or so every year. Riddle, UND, and Purdue I think were the power houses. IIRC, there were 800 graduates per year collectively amongst all 13 programs and a bunch were already operating at capacity, very hesitant to expand their programs until they knew jobs would actually be available. My point is that the agency was not bursting at the seams with potential new hires. Combine that with the fact that when a job offer has been extended (I mean, the candidate has been "selected") it still takes awhile for them to get to the facility. I was "selected" in Oct '05, and I haven't gone anywhere or heard anything since then... other than that the FBI is extremely backlogged with clearance investigations. So, how fast are these graduates getting to the facilities? My May '05 grads that designated the West-Pac region for hire haven't even been selected.

The community colleges are your largest source of "majors" who don't have anything else going. I was one of those people, and went to school with a few. Those programs aren't that large. Even then, I went to school with a bunch of 18 to 20 year olds who can move on to other things.

As far as the four year schools goes, I doubt very few people did ATC as a sole major. You'd have to be stupid. In the current hiring climate, the FAA has been dragging their feet hiring graduates, and they won't even consider you for hire until you graduate. It has been entirely possible that you wait for two years from graduation, at the very least. Don't forget the "applications for waiver" or whatever that were put out in Dec '04 for pool extensions -- meaning people have been waiting for more than two years for jobs.

Graduation is also no guarantee of a job. Do you honestly think that all of these potential hires were just sitting around at home working at McD's until the FAA made up their mind? I sure hope these aren't the people who will be guiding our skies in the next few years.

As far as PFT goes -- everybody I know that is a pilot and an ATC candidate says that they'll fly airplanes for crappy pay long before they push tin for crappy pay. Meaning, we have a bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys.

My comment about the fragility of the system is that it already is at its breaking point. Push it any further, and it's going to break.

P.S. Just for BBB's amusement, I ain't whining. I already passed on a flying career because of the state of the industry, and if this falls through, I have some VERY promising back up plans.

 

[smellthejeta]

They are back to offering the test as a method of getting an ATC job. This means you don't even have to pay to go through the CTI program. Any old Joe can apply to take the test. There are plenty of folks who would love to make $30,000+ in this country who have no other chance to do so.

What do you mean "back to?" I know specific centers were offered the test to off of the street candidates, but that was far from a well implemented plan and was a one shot deal at most of those places. There are currently no vacancies posted on the FAA website for ATC for non-military/non-federal employees.

IOW, if you're a random joe blow off the street, show me how he can take the test and get hired.

 

[J.C.Airborne]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Moderator reviewed.

Actually i have heard alot of doctors complaining about the exact problem you have described in addition to the high cost of mal practice insurance. Additionally, if the american auto industry is failing its because americans make bad expensive cars. Make cheap good cars (Honda) and the industry will boom. Your analogies suck...come back when you have some good ones.

 

[unreal]

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

If Hold West is who I think he is, he's about 2500 miles to the west of Socal...

 

[Hold West]

I'm not so sure. Back before the big hiring crunch was publicized, I saw a GAO report on the number of students in the CTI programs. There weren't that many.

Everything you say has validity - I have no hard numbers on how many folks are out there on the waiting lists. Seems to be a back up now of people who graduated three years ago or more waiting for hire, or at least that's the impression I get from reading atccti.com and a few other things.

I particularly like your observation that we'll end up with a "bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys". It's entirely possible that you may correct and the FAA's main assumptions in their "plan" might just blow up in their face. It's a huge experiment they've undertaken, and the outcome is pretty murky. We're all in for an interesting ride.

 

[Hold West]

Dang. Someobody got bent over REAL hard by the bubba known as his major airline employer and is out to dis everyone in his path. I don't care what it says he is in his profile -- I tried to do the USAF flying thing, and would have been VERY happy with it.

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

ZMP is where I started many years ago. I currently reside about 2,400 nm SW of SOCAL.

 

[smellthejeta]

Everything you say has validity - I have no hard numbers on how many folks are out there on the waiting lists. Seems to be a back up now of people who graduated three years ago or more waiting for hire, or at least that's the impression I get from reading atccti.com and a few other things.

There definitely is a backlog list. I have to wonder if it looks like a furlough list, you know, where half of the people will bypass their recall. For me, even if I have second thoughts on this job, I'd be stupid to take my name off of the list before they call me.

I particularly like your observation that we'll end up with a "bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys". It's entirely possible that you may correct and the FAA's main assumptions in their "plan" might just blow up in their face. It's a huge experiment they've undertaken, and the outcome is pretty murky. We're all in for an interesting ride.

I wish I were spouting union rhetoric, but the truth is, the FAA has no leverage for the long haul. You guys that are two years away from a pension already have a pretty respectable high-three locked in, and will do absolutely anything to keep it. The new guys just aren't on the property yet, Like I said earlier, those of us in the pipeline have to be working on a plan B.

I was discussing the matter with a pilot, and he mentioned something about getting ALPA involved. I told him ALPA could hardly take of their own. I didn't mean that as an insult it was a matter of reality at places like UAL.

The FAA can play with fire all they want, it won't be the controllers getting burn.