How's those UNIONS working out for ya????

[wacoflyr]

ALPA is not a union but a place for a few select pilots to go and retire under the guise of doing "union" work.

You are correct. I would also suggest that they eat their young.

 

[Helmsalee]

And sometimes their old.
Helm

 

[Fozzy]

Union is doing what it is supposed to be. Providing job security and protection. The best bet I have ever made.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Union is doing what it is supposed to be. Providing job security and protection. The best bet I have ever made.

Unions?

Job Security? There are a lot of pilots at NJ that probably don't agree with that right about now. The union turned their backs on them.

And it's not done yet... One more furlough where the union won't protect them and then the contract will be opened.

 

[brokeflyer]

Unions?

Job Security? There are a lot of pilots at NJ that probably don't agree with that right about now. The union turned their backs on them.

And it's not done yet... One more furlough where the union won't protect them and then the contract will be opened.

I agree, there shouldn't be a union here or anywhere else in aviation.

You b19, being in management, are the only one who can change that.

so will you please?

 

[skanza]

Union is doing what it is supposed to be. Providing job security and protection. The best bet I have ever made.

Here we go with the job security. This can't be done with a union organization. Many, many factors play into the security of your employment. Most of which can't be controlled with the union. Sure, they may keep you employed if the company gets into trouble, but if the company is failing, they're only prolonging and making the inevitable worse. Plus, the union may even contribute to the problems a company may have: work stoppage, strikes, and other dishonest maneuvers that are done in the spirit of 'standing together'. It's all bull$hit.
And protection? From what? Oh yeah, the big mean management guy that owns/runs the company and just wants to use you as slave labor. Come on, that crap is so out-dated. That kind of stuff only happens in third world countries..you know, like where your shoes were made...

Try relying on yourself to provide job security and protection through honest, safe work and good career decisions and leave the dues-collecting union fools out of it...

 

[brokeflyer]

Here we go with the job security. This can't be done with a union organization. Many, many factors play into the security of your employment. Most of which can't be controlled with the union. Sure, they may keep you employed if the company gets into trouble, but if the company is failing, they're only prolonging and making the inevitable worse. Plus, the union may even contribute to the problems a company may have: work stoppage, strikes, and other dishonest maneuvers that are done in the spirit of 'standing together'. It's all bull$hit.
And protection? From what? Oh yeah, the big mean management guy that owns/runs the company and just wants to use you as slave labor. Come on, that crap is so out-dated. That kind of stuff only happens in third world countries..you know, like where your shoes were made...

Try relying on yourself to provide job security and protection through honest, safe work and good career decisions and leave the dues-collecting union fools out of it...

you're right about all that. Only management can fix it though.

 

[gunfyter]

Unions?

Job Security? There are a lot of pilots at NJ that probably don't agree with that right about now. The union turned their backs on them.

And it's not done yet... One more furlough where the union won't protect them and then the contract will be opened.

What BS!

I'll bet there isn't even ONE pilot at NJ that agrees with you.

But there are probably hundreds of at-will employees that wish they had a union!

 

[FLYLOW22]

Union is a good thing for us.

Thanks.

 

[CA1900]

Here we go with the job security. This can't be done with a union organization....

Sure it can. The most important thing it can do is ensure that, if a furlough or layoff is necessary, it is done fairly. I've seen companies lay pilots off based not on their seniority, or even on job performance, but on the equipment they happen to be flying. Management wanted to get rid of a particular fleet, and if you happened to be on it, you were canned. That's bullsh** no matter how you slice it.

And protection? From what? Oh yeah, the big mean management guy that owns/runs the company and just wants to use you as slave labor.

Yeah, a company would never do anything sleazy or improper; only those big, bad unions. I distinctly remember the chief pilot at my last company calling me at home, demanding to know why I delayed a 7am departure out of our Albany hub.

I replied, "We needed to use the bathroom and grab something to eat, and it's a scheduled 10-minute turn. The hotel breakfast starts an hour after our showtime, so this was our first opportunity."

The chief pilot's reply? "You have a 3-hour break in the afternoon. You can eat breakfast and lunch then." I'm dead serious; that's what he said.

That kind of BS is why pilots unionize.

Try relying on yourself to provide job security and protection through honest, safe work and good career decisions and leave the dues-collecting union fools out of it...

Tried that. Didn't work. The union job is much, much better.

 

[skanza]

Sure it can. The most important thing it can do is ensure that, if a furlough or layoff is necessary, it is done fairly. I've seen companies lay pilots off based not on their seniority, or even on job performance, but on the equipment they happen to be flying. Management wanted to get rid of a particular fleet, and if you happened to be on it, you were canned. That's bullsh** no matter how you slice it. Fair? This is a business, not kindergarten. If a decision was made to eliminate a fleet it would be for the better of the business. If it were about being 'fair' then we would be considered a charity, not a business. Slice it that way, won't you?

Yeah, a company would never do anything sleazy or improper; only those big, bad unions. I distinctly remember the chief pilot at my last company calling me at home, demanding to know why I delayed a 7am departure out of our Albany hub.

I replied, "We needed to use the bathroom and grab something to eat, and it's a scheduled 10-minute turn. The hotel breakfast starts an hour after our showtime, so this was our first opportunity."

The chief pilot's reply? "You have a 3-hour break in the afternoon. You can eat breakfast and lunch then." I'm dead serious; that's what he said. Obviously not the guy/company to be working for. You probably quit, right? And if this guy continued this ridiculous behavior, others would follow your lead. Eventually, 'he' would be replaced and there's your fix. It's not instant, but it is effective. A union, on the other hand may 'fix' this kind of issue quickly but at the expense of creating and ever-lasting management -vs- employee battle that makes it miserable for everyone.



That kind of BS is why pilots unionize.

Tried that. Didn't work. The union job is much, much better. You tried honest, safe work and good career decisions and it didn't work? Really?

.....

 

[CA1900]

Fair? This is a business, not kindergarten. If a decision was made to eliminate a fleet it would be for the better of the business.

Thank you for proving my point. Eliminating a fleet is fine. Firing instead of retraining the pilots in that fleet is where I have a problem.

Obviously not the guy/company to be working for. You probably quit, right? And if this guy continued this ridiculous behavior, others would follow your lead. Eventually, 'he' would be replaced and there's your fix.

Yes, I left for a better job. And no, last I checked, he was not replaced. He was doing exactly what the company wanted him to do: browbeat the pilots to make the numbers look good to the codeshare partner.

It's not instant, but it is effective. A union, on the other hand may 'fix' this kind of issue quickly but at the expense of creating and ever-lasting management -vs- employee battle that makes it miserable for everyone.

I'd much rather do battle than simply resign myself to a miserable existence. Ideally, I wouldn't have to do either one, which is the environment I'm in right now. Yes, a union job without daily battles; imagine that.

You tried honest, safe work and good career decisions and it didn't work? Really?

You left out the last part of your sentence, about "leave the dues-collecting union fools out of it." I tried that, and no, it didn't work. Pay and working conditions continued to get worse and worse. (That's why I provided the above example of expecting me to work safely from 5am to 2pm with no food nor bathroom breaks.)

 

[fischman]

I guess we're not going to hear from B19 now that I pointed out that Skanza SOMEHOW miraculously always posts RIGHT after him?

He's probably too busy trying to figure out how to keep a union out of Avantair.

 

[doh]

We are on page three and still not one word about the thread title? "How's those UNIONS"!?! Singular or plural, make up your mind bouchedag!

 

[doh]

Unions?

Job Security? There are a lot of pilots at NJ that probably don't agree with that right about now. The union turned their backs on them.

And it's not done yet... One more furlough where the union won't protect them and then the contract will be opened.

Faulty logic and bad reasoning. If furlough equates to someone having turned their back on the affected pilot, then management at non-union fractionals are guilty of turning their backs on their pilots. Flexjet management did not turn their backs on the pilots. You might be able to make a case that they overreacted and furloughed too many pilots. You can't make the case that they turned their backs on the pilots. And therefore, you can't make the case that Netjets, or the the union have turned their backs on pilots who are furloughed. There are a lot of monikers that I won't apply to you B19, because name calling would be wrong. But my thoughts are still free!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Faulty logic and bad reasoning. If furlough equates to someone having turned their back on the affected pilot, then management at non-union fractionals are guilty of turning their backs on their pilots. Flexjet management did not turn their backs on the pilots. You might be able to make a case that they overreacted and furloughed too many pilots. You can't make the case that they turned their backs on the pilots. And therefore, you can't make the case that Netjets, or the the union have turned their backs on pilots who are furloughed. There are a lot of monikers that I won't apply to you B19, because name calling would be wrong. But my thoughts are still free!

Companies without unions may furlough and rehire to adjust to the marketplace quickly. The ability to do that is what makes working for a non-union company more secure, because the business can adjust as needed. This makes the company more secure as a complete entity.

Unions beat the drum touting job security for their brethren, yet will sacrifice the bottom third of the membership to keep the high payroll and benefits for the upper two thirds. It's rare that any union will take cuts to save jobs.

Non union companies are trying to save ALL jobs within the company.

Unions say they are protecting their brethren, let all the non-union jobs get shredded first, then will protect the upper two thirds, and squeeze the company until it's on the brink of bankruptcy before the give back occurs.

I'll take MY job security over that of what a union promises and never delivers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I guess we're not going to hear from B19 now that I pointed out that Skanza SOMEHOW miraculously always posts RIGHT after him?

He's probably too busy trying to figure out how to keep a union out of Avantair.

fischman, somebody has to keep a stooge like you honest. I can't be the only one on this board that always tells the truth.

Also, I could say the same thing about you, broke and NJW as far as posts are concerned. You always show up at the same time. At least skanza has a clue, unlike your two counterparts.

I'm confident that those fracs that are non-union now will stay that way. Those pilots are smart enough to see the product (or lack therof) produced by the efforts of current fractional union representation.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What BS!

I'll bet there isn't even ONE pilot at NJ that agrees with you.

But there are probably hundreds of at-will employees that wish they had a union!

Your right. There isn't a single pilot actually working at NJ that would agree with me because they currently "feel protected" until the next unfortunate furlough because the union won't open the contract and be reasonable with the company.

However, there are a lot of furloughed pilots right now that would do about anything to be flying again and wondering how they got into that position being "protected" by their union.

Many of those pilots gave up perfectly good flying jobs elsewhere as NJ was overhiring to meet the demands of a CBA with work rules that demanded more pilots per plane than any other fractional in the industry.

There may be hundreds of at will pilots that wish they had a union, but there are also hundreds of unemployed union pilots that know the union isn't living up to what they were promised.

 

[CA1900]

Many of those pilots gave up perfectly good flying jobs elsewhere as NJ was overhiring ...

Exactly. NetJets overhired, not the union. They hired for anticipated growth that didn't happen.

...to meet the demands of a CBA with work rules that demanded more pilots per plane than any other fractional in the industry.

Again, completely wrong.

We have more pilots than the contract requires. That was the case before the furlough, and is the case now.

 

[brokeflyer]

Companies without unions may furlough and rehire to adjust to the marketplace quickly. The ability to do that is what makes working for a non-union company more secure, because the business can adjust as needed. This makes the company more secure as a complete entity.

Unions beat the drum touting job security for their brethren, yet will sacrifice the bottom third of the membership to keep the high payroll and benefits for the upper two thirds. It's rare that any union will take cuts to save jobs.

Non union companies are trying to save ALL jobs within the company.

Unions say they are protecting their brethren, let all the non-union jobs get shredded first, then will protect the upper two thirds, and squeeze the company until it's on the brink of bankruptcy before the give back occurs.

I'll take MY job security over that of what a union promises and never delivers.

ok for about the 8th time now, GO CHANGE IT THEN. you are the only one that can do it.