How!?

[urflyingme?!]

I'M 19. I go to the Mesa Airlines School. How do you guys think a pilot should "pay his dues" and how are we supposed to get a job without lowering the bar? I cant just walk into United and start out as a 57 capt......

 

[uscpilot]

Not another PFT discussion

Please dont tell me there is going to be another PFT thread. Try a search, or just go to the training forum, there is a huge PFT thread. If you still have questions, or if by then you dont think your comment about walking in and being a 57 capt is not absurd, then come back.
usc

 

[urflyingme?!]

i read the pft thread. maybbe i should be more specific

People here seem to hate the regionals, mesa included possibly at the top of the list.

I have been given the oppourtunity to skip the years of waiting around at my local field for some schmuck to let me take him up and tell him about p-factor once a week. I have been given the chance at becoming a first officer on either a rj or a turbo prop. Yes the pay is bad, but it is better than being a CFI... This will also provide me with multi/turbine time, and expedite my timebuiling as well as the quality of my time.

So I ask, what is the big deal here? Why is it such a travesty to accept a turbine job at 21yr 0mo of age and begin my career?

 

[350DRIVER]

The Mesa Airlines Pilot Development Program (MAPD) is about as far from PFT as you can find. You must prove yourself, succeed, etc, etc, or you will be booted from the program and sent on your way. The people who go through this program do extremely well when they hit the line due to the strict standardization, procedures, etc, etc. They train you to be an airline pilot from day one, bottom line. This is surely no walk in the park and will not baby sit you. This is much different from anything that you could label PFT ala Gulfstream or Tab Express, you are not "renting" a seat out or anything along those lines.


3 5 0

 

[urflyingme?!]

that is exactly what i have seen at tis program... now let me ask another question.... I see so much talk of pft, but where can i find a good definition of this?

Are we talking type ratings and recurrent training?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

why do you care so much about what people think????...

heck, you will be a turboprop F/O instead of waiting around at the airport to teach some schmuck!!!


(or at least thats what you believe)


every time I read one of the moronic posts I wish I had started some "FO training program" and gotten rich off of idiots....what a missed opportunity.....oh well

 

[avbug]

I have been given the oppourtunity to skip the years of waiting around at my local field for some schmuck to let me take him up and tell him about p-factor once a week. I have been given the chance at becoming a first officer on either a rj or a turbo prop. Yes the pay is bad, but it is better than being a CFI... This will also provide me with multi/turbine time, and expedite my timebuiling as well as the quality of my time.

Too late. You just lowered the bar, all by your little lonesome self. Congratulations, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[JB74]

I don't understand. How can you call a guy a "schmuck" who has the same interests and goals as you do. Not cool.

 

[Traumahawk]

I'll take the bait....

I have been given the oppourtunity to skip the years of waiting around at my local field for some schmuck to let me take him up and tell him about p-factor once a week. I have been given the chance at becoming a first officer on either a rj or a turbo prop. Yes the pay is bad, but it is better than being a CFI...

...........and expedite my timebuiling as well as the quality of my time.

So I ask, what is the big deal here? Why is it such a travesty to accept a turbine job at 21yr 0mo of age and begin my career?

The Audacity of these comments. This has to be a joke.

Instructing can be one of the most satisfying things in aviation, and you my friend, just cemented once again that I am going the right way. I'd much rather teach some schmuck about P-factor then have to teach some *ss like you about perspective.

And go get yourself a pen. You can do a lot more "timebuilding" for less.


--T-hawk "AKA former----er, no, still a SCHMUCK"

P.S. I don't care where he/she flies, w/ that attitude this person is the BEATING HEART of PFT.

 

[enigma]

I'M 19. I go to the Mesa Airlines School. How do you guys think a pilot should "pay his dues" and how are we supposed to get a job without lowering the bar? I cant just walk into United and start out as a 57 capt......

urflyingme, there is no shame in the MESA PD program. If if understand correctly, it is a training program that takes a pilot from zero to hire-able. You are truly paying for training. Going to MPD is no different than going to a local junior college training program in the PFT respect.

The confusion over "PFT" is caused by the way the term is used; in truth, PFT would be better termed PFJ, with the J standing for Job. "PFT" is pure and simply, when equally qualified pilots are ranked according to their willingness to write a check for the job. In past practice, a company such as Comair or Continental Express required that you show up at newhire groundschool with a check in hand. The check wasn't for any sort of training, because their minimums were still somewhere around 1000/200, or higher. PFT was a way to extract profit from a pilot oversupply. Or put another way, COEX would hire an FO qualified pilot with $10,000 and put him in an E120 at a time that they could have hired a 727 typed ex-Braniff Captain for the same job. The discriminator was the applicants willingness to pay for the job.

That is/was PFT.


In the threads that have been contested lately, the arguments were not really against young beginners who are trying to get ahead. The anger was being directed towards those who make a fortune in some business venture, then decide to be a professional pilot because of their midlife crisis, and are happy to work for nothing. They don't choose to work for nothing because they need experience; they choose to work for nothing because they don't want to enter the profession at the traditional bottom. They want to undercut someone who started out like you are and take his job. Since they don't "need" the money, employers love them, and take advantage of their desire to fly. Some employers are so enamoured with their desire to work for less, that the employer will make hiring decisions on that desire instead of basing his choice on the best qualified.

Now quit calling any paying customer a scmuck.


regards,
enigma

PS, one last thing, the reason that I even bother getting into a PFT discussion is to educate a newbie so that they will not make the mistake of undercutting us ALL by whoring themselves out. Shortcutting the system may get you ahead for now, but it drags down the very wages that attracted you to the profession in the beginning. Please note that "you" doesn't mean you personally.

 

[sf3boy]

A friend of mine just upgraded to ERJ captain who has been at Air Midwest/Mesa for about five years. The first thing he told me was how excited he was about having 300 hour San Juan guys in the right seat. He wasn't to thrilled about having to teach FO's what clouds are. Go instruct, fly some freight, or go military. I would recommend some actual experience before one flies paying passengers around.

 

[350DRIVER]

The first thing he told me was how excited he was about having 300 hour San Juan guys in the right seat. He wasn't to thrilled about having to teach FO's what clouds are. Go instruct, fly some freight, or go military. I would recommend some actual experience before one flies paying passengers around.

The above is pretty comical but faceless and false for the most part. I know quite a few of those guys at Mesa who sign the flight release and I have heard nothing but praise on how well the first officers are prepared, line ready, etc, etc, upon completion of ioe.

urflyingme?!,

You have the opportunity so now is the time to prove yourself and make it through the program, not a very easy task by any means but hard to beat the training. This program will prepare you for the line upon completion and you should have absolutely no (zero) problems when in training. That is why it is such a standardized and difficult training program from day 1.


Some people seem to neglect to realize that the washout rate is very low with the mapd grads, obviously due to the quality of the program and the way that it is tailored and set up. You will be fine when all is said and done. I have talked 3 of my former students into going there and I will continue to be an advocate and supporter of it, facts speak for themselves.

3 5 0

ps> you should not give a flying fuc% what anyone else thinks..


pss>> I am willing to make a rather large wager on the fact that I think Tab Express/FO is behind this one as well... After reading the second reply everything seemed to come together.- Too bad he picked a school that is n o t PFT.- Tab, you could have done better than this....

 

[sf3boy]

350Driver,
I am a changed man. I now have realized the errors in my old fashioned, closed minded thinking. I firmly believe that all airlines should hire 300 hour pilots to fill the right seat of 50,70,90 seat jets. That way when they have enough seniority to be a captain, they can say, "wow, the last a/c that I was in command of was.....wait, I've never been in command of any aircraft." Thanks 350, from this day on I will be the first to say experience is for suckers.

 

[Dubya]

I've heard of banging the company drum...but sheesh.



W

 

[350DRIVER]

sf3boy,

The bottom line is that this program works, like it or hate it... These applicants can have 300TT or 2000TT, does not matter since they still have to pass interview, indoctrination, systems class, sim training, ride, oral, ioe, etc, etc. No 121 carrier can allow a "short cut" to the line due to reduced flight hours. The mapd students are put to the test long before they are line qualified. If one cannot cut it then they are weeded out long before they make it to ground school.

3 5 0

 

[urflyingme?!]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I would like to make a few points though... i do not think that instructing is a bad job, it's just one that is poorly paid for the skill required. I also do not want that to be my first carreer, i DO look forward to instructing at a later date, though...

Thanks for the input guys... And I don't believe I have lowered any bars, because I was still in High School when that contract got voted in!! (Man....)

 

[sf3boy]

I have thought more about this today and have come to the conclusion that we all payed for "training" unless we were from the ranks of the military. It has been the paying for the job, like enigma stated, that really bothers me.

On the other hand, my passengers pay anywhere from 300 to 2000 dollars for a seat. I would only hope that these passengers would like to have experienced pilots at the helm.

I did think of a good money making scheme though. Paris Junior College should offer a one year surgeon course and then give them placement at a hospital after "testing out". What the patients don't know won't kill them. We hope.

 

[surplus1]

My Nickel's Worth

Thanks for the advice everyone. I would like to make a few points though... i do not think that instructing is a bad job, it's just one that is poorly paid for the skill required. I also do not want that to be my first carreer, i DO look forward to instructing at a later date, though...

Thanks for the input guys... And I don't believe I have lowered any bars, because I was still in High School when that contract got voted in!! (Man....)

I read your original post and all the replies so far.

I don't know anything about MAPD or the quality of your training.

I do know that in this country everyone who learns to fly, with the exception of military pilots, has to pay someone, something, for his initial licenses and ratings. Call it whatever you choose, it costs money to learn how to fly and it always has.

It is wonderful that a young person like yourself is still willing to prepare for a career as a pilot at a time like this. A time when all the down-sides of being an airline pilot are perhaps more clear than they have ever been.

I congratulate on your desire to have wings and to join the rest of us in this very challenging but interesting adventure that we all love. I think you're crazy and could probably do much better by pursuing a more stable avocation. However, I've been where you are and I understand your dream.

I want to welcome you to the world of flying, and I don't give a hoot where you got your training. What I do care about is how well you do your job and how dedicated you are to giving your best. If you work hard, don't get filled with too much pride, and ask questions, you'll learn more everytime you leave terra firma and you will get better with every flight. Strut all you want in the terminal building, but once you enter the cockpit, turn off the Pride Switch before you sit down, and don't turn it on again until you flight has ended, at the gate.

The first time you make a flight and you don't learn something or have some new experience, should be the last time you make any flights. Remember that, no matter how many "hours" you have.

You could have paid for your flight training at the local FBO, at Embry Riddle, at UND, at Purdue, at the Comair (now DCI) Academy, at Flight Safety or at a thousand other places, some good some mediocre, some bad. You chose MAPD for whatever reasons. The point is you wanted to fly and you are doing it. Regardless of where you went to school, you will get out of it what you put into it.

Some schools are better than others. Some give you what it takes to pass an FAA flight test and nothing more. Others are more structured and offer a much broader perspective, some are what we call "license factories".

Much is said about the advantages of being a CFI. Well, it can't hurt you to do that, but the truth is that most CFI's are not teaching because they want to teach, the are teaching because they can't get a job anywhere else. You often learn in spite of them rather than because of them. It is, more often than not, a classic case of "the blind leading the blind". And yes, I've been a CFI. I learned a lot doing that, probably much more than my students did. If you choose to become a CFI you will learn a great deal from the experience, but you certainly don't have to be a CFI to become a good airline pilot. Simply put, it is not a requirement. Like most pilots, I did not become a CFI because I was thrilled by the idea. I became a CFI because, at the time, it was the only available way to get a flying job.

There's a lot of rhetoric about flying freight in some junk airplane in the middle of the night to "build experience". Well, I've done that too. It is also true that I had several acquaintances that literally "died trying". Yes, I learned a lot of things and many of them have been useful later on. It is also true that I developed just as many, if not more, bad habits that later had to be unlearned. I was also lucky that I didn't kill myself or manage to get violated and put a tarnish on my record. I did not do it because it was "great experience" or because I thought I needed to "pay my dues". That's BS. I did it for the same reasons that most of us do, i.e., I couldn't get a better job somewhere else.

And by the way, it happens I was a military pilot first. Before I got a CFI, and before I had to fly a beat-up Beech-18 in the middle of the night. When I got out of the military the industry happened to be in one of its infamous "down turns" and jobs were not easy to get so, like everybody else, I did what I had to do. When I got furloughed and yes, I did, I just did what I had to do again, to survive and feed my family. So you're not talking to a "cherry".

Bottom line. If your flight school will give you a chance to prove you can fly better equipment, in a safer environment, and if that is what YOU want to do, take the opportunity and don't look back.

That DOES not mean that I approve of what is called PFT (enigma is right, it should be PFJ). I do NOT think that any company should require a pilot to pay for the specialized training that Company is required, by law, to give that pilot before they can put him/her "on-line". Some companies do that and it is not a good thing.

However, that does not seem to be what MAPD is doing. It appears they are putting you into a "structured" program that is designed to better prepare you for entry level airline flying at the parent company. If you complete that program and it gives you a chance to fly for the airline that operates the program, it is my opinion that you should take that opportunity.

It is not your fault that someone else did not choose to go to that school or preferred a different route. You are responsible for the choices that YOU make, not for the choices that others make, good or bad.

If your school gives you the opportunity to get an interview or a job with an airline, when you only have 300 flight hours, my advice is easy, take the job! There is no logical reason why you should have to spend 1500 hours flying in the traffic pattern or the practice area before you do it, just because that's the route that somebody else chose to follow. By the time you get 1500 hours yourself, chances are you'll learn and know a he!! of alot more than that disgruntled CFI. If you don't, the airline will can you long before you get 1500 hours. And by the way, 1500 hours or any other number of "hours" is nothing more than an arbitrary by-product of the law of supply and demand.

Military pilots find themselves in command of complex weapons systems with Mach 2 capability, with the same 300 hours that you will have. They can do this because they have the benefit of the best structured and specialized training in the world. Additionally, at least when I was there, they don't have a bunch of "CFI's" who are themselves just learning how to fly. The IP's are experienced and highly competent.

Your training at MAPD or any other civilian pilot school will not be as good as military training, simply because no civilian school can afford to offer that type of equipment and most pilot trainees could not afford to buy it if they did.

Many foreign (West European) airlines have ab-initio training programs that produce new pilots who begin with zero flight time. They are very selective (more so than any US school), very structured, and very effective. The graduates step right in to the cockpits of 737's or similar equipment, and they do well, with 300 hours. They do not do this because they feel like it, they do it because there are shortages of qualified applicants in those countries. That doesn't happen to be the case in the USA, or our airlines would do it too. MAPD may not be as good as those programs, but apparently it is good enough. The truth is that 300 hours of experience can be a lot better than one hour of experience repeated 1000 times.

What you are doing or have done at MAPD doesn't sound like PFT to me. I'm glad you were able to do it and I'm sorry if some other folks that chose a different path are unhappy about that. That's life. It's not fair (life) and it isn't ever going to be. The majority of us got the jobs that we have on the basis of "luck", not skill. We just happened to be in the right place at the right time, with whatever quals that particular company wanted at that time. It did not happen because we were giants of aeronautical expertise. We were just plain lucky.

I'll probably get "stoned" for what I've said to you, but I still think you should take that job at MESA if they offer it to you. "Pay your dues" by working at MESA. That particular company would not be my "company of first choice", but if that is the company that will hire you with 300 hours, then let them. You can always move on at a later date if you don't like it. Meanwhile, work hard at becoming the best professional airman that you possibly can be. Never mind the naysayers. A high percentage of that is envy. You don't know and I don't know what any of them would do, if they had the same opportunity and the tables were turned in their favor.

I wish you the very best in your future. I only wish that I was lucky enough to be 19 again. God bless you.

Sincerely,
Surplus 1.

And yes, I'd be happy to have the chance to share a cockpit with an ambitious young pilot like you seem to be (but I don't work for MESA). I especially don't think you should get "jumped" on by a bunch of unhappy pilots for asking an honest question that shows your concern and need for advice. I also feel "lucky" that I don't have to work for MESA at this point, but my reasons are very different from those of a "new" airman. If I was just starting out I would prefer other airlines, but with 300 hours the choices are very limited.

 

[Aerosurfer]

AMEN to that!!!!

 

[urflyingme?!]

Surplus thanks for the info... to all who had constructive things to say thank you, to the naysayers wellllll.............

 

[cvsfly]

I've had brief experience with MAPD. Got my ATP with them. Gave me the opportunity to do some high density flying and do some skiing in Telluride afterwards as well. No real complaints. I didn't think I got what was advertised in the quality of training. It was basically - here study this (no formal ground school), here are some pointers on flying the BE-58, expect this on the checkride. That was fine, but the name an advertizing hinted at more. So I paid a higher rate to get some dual in a BE-58. Yes I did get the chance to interview with a MESA airline afterward, but of course no guarantee and none expected. Didn't get selected out of the 80 that showed up for the MESA 10 min interview (with another applicant) and written exam. Oh well. Do what you want. More power to you. I just think it is a poor investment in general to pay that kind of money for that kind of job - opportunity. Nothing is guarenteed and those that claim to guarentee a job are the problem ones. No disrespect to the MAPD program, I'm sure its fine. Just buyer beware and don't complain afterwards that you are more in debt and that the current employment situation will not allow you to get hired with a 1000 hrs. Yes, I do have a problem with the regional being a training ground for a 500 hr. pilot who has never taken a plane more than 2 states away and never shot an actual approach down to minimums with my family riding on board. You can't learn everything in a class room or simulator. But you will keep these training schools in business and the small local schools and local aviation businesses will eventually fade away.

 

[rumpletumbler]

You won't have the experience at 250 hours or even at 500. I've been lucky enough during my 450 or so to have gotten about 70 of it in a Metro and 30 or so in Citations. However, I was in no way qualified to operate either of those aircraft with authority and was most likely more of a burden than a help to the Captain in every situation I was in...so while it was fun it wasn't productive. In no circumstance does anyone IMO with 500 hours need to be hauling passengers in a turboprop/turbojet aircraft. You just don't have the experience necessary to make command decisions that will ensure your passengers safety at that level and if something were to happen to the Captain at a critical point God help the folks in the back because you will probably be of little good.

 

[Aerosurfer]

rumpletumbler You won't have the experience at 250 hours or even at 500. I've been lucky enough during my 450 or so to have gotten about 70 of it in a Metro and 30 or so in Citations. However, I was in no way qualified to operate either of those aircraft with authority and was most likely more of a burden than a help to the Captain in every situation I was in...so while it was fun it wasn't productive. In no circumstance does anyone IMO with 500 hours need to be hauling passengers in a turboprop/turbojet aircraft. You just don't have the experience necessary to make command decisions that will ensure your passengers safety at that level and if something were to happen to the Captain at a critical point God help the folks in the back because you will probably be of little good.

Bold words, and in no way an accurate opinion. Like it was said above he's not just buying a seat to ride along, you still have to pass multiple testings, systems, sim and checkride. What ever training you had on the Metro, Citation clearly was not very formal, and obviously you were not a "required crewmember" so your involvement was limited in the first place. If you were I think that speaks of your ability as a pilot, and especially a CFI to learn new training. After 30 hours and especially 70, you should have a descent grasp on what you are flying, at any amount of total time to be more than a "burden." Its one thing to Fly an airplane you are not trained on, but its something else to be on a two pilot aircraft as a crewmember.

At what point after 500 hours does someone have the experience to make those descisions "IYO"?

 

[rumpletumbler]

I don't know that there is a magic number I just don't think that at 500 hours you have the experience level to fly an RJ etc. with 50 folks in the back....your welcome to disagree....you have the right to be wrong.

 

[Aerosurfer]

So if you were offered a position tomarrow Fly an RJ or a Dash8 you would turn it down?

You are either a liar or an idiot

 

[urflyingme?!]

Nicely put.... Nicely put....

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't know that there is a magic number I just don't think that at 500 hours you have the experience level to fly an RJ etc. with 50 folks in the back....your welcome to disagree....you have the right to be wrong.

Well shame on the FAA then for allowing pilots with less than 500 hours to complete the 121 training curriculum, multiple written tests, sim check, oral exam, and OE/line checks required to fly for a regional airline. Not to mention FO evaluations.

 

[rumpletumbler]

So if you were offered a position tomarrow Fly an RJ or a Dash8 you would turn it down?

You are either a liar or an idiot

Well in a round about way I already have. I have a friend who is in the teens in senority with ASA who asked me if he could take my resume in and I thought it was a waste of time but he did so. Shortly thereafter I got two pieces of mail....one was a form letter from ASA with the 1200 hour minimums blah blah blah.......and guess what the other one was? It was an offer from FlightSafety to give them $30,000 to go through a course which ended with an interview with "guess who?" After having a laugh about it with my wife and some friends I prompty threw it in the garbage lest someone might find it and take them up on that offer. However were I up to speed etc. and didn't have to buy my job I'd probably take it with the understanding that I felt underqualified and would hope that I would become qualified through experience without being a problem to other pilots, the company, or pax.

 

[sf3boy]

rumpletumbler,
I have to say you hold yourself to higher standards than most other pilots. The "me first and only" syndrom seems to be rampant in the regionals (i.e Mesa, Mesaba passing crud contracts).

I have always wondered why airlines publish minimum time requirements for employment when in the backroom they tell you that those can be "waived" if you got cash in your pocket? Hell, maybe the insurance premiums are so high for low time pilots that this is how the airlines subsidize them.

In the 90's, there were tons of military guys coming out to the private sector since their squadrons and bases were being shut down by the White House, but couldn't get airline jobs. Numerous regionals hired civilians who were only to happy to show up to class with 10 thousand dollars while the military pilots stayed home. It has been my experience that the regionals have always been willing to roll the dice on safety if the revenue is increased.

Just look at current Mesaba maintenance.

 

[thesource]

If I might add to this thread.
I've been a captain at my airline for 5 years and have flown with many low time newhires both on the E-120 and CJR.
I would agree that this fast track stuff teaches students to manipulate the controls, run checklists for a specific aircraft most notably the CJR, and otherwise do the job they practiced for at some of these schools that train you for that coveted right seat at a real airline.

However, I have said it 1000 times, everything I know about flying I learned from the 6 years I spent Instructing during the last down turn in the late 80's early 90's.

I'll provide one example of many to illustrate my point.
I was assigned to fly with a new hire who had about 300 hrs.
The first leg was an empty leg and I let the FO take it. It was daylight vfr with less than 10 kts wind from about 30 degrees off the nose. FO was brilliant with the paperwork, ran great checklists, radio work was weak.
We proceeded to takeoff. When the aircraft broke ground it yawed slightly (emphasis slightly) as the E-120 and many aircraft will do. The first officers response was to apply the wrong rudder. As the aircraft began to roll opposite aileron was applied, the more it rolled the more rudder was added.
Since we were empty I thought I would watch to see how far it would go. As we were about 40 degrees off runway heading and in a 40 degree bank headed for the terminal I decide to take control I completed the Takeoff and we continued to our destination.

When we reached cruise I asked what had happened. The Fo siad that they thought we had lost an engine. Bad choice with a perfectly opperating aircraft and a normal crosswind.

This illustrates my point you can train a monkey to manipulate controls and switches (NASA prover this 40 years ago) but in the real world it is experience that we as pilots have to rely on. Experiance we get from instructing, crop dusting, towing banners, flying cargo at night, flying different kinds of aircraft.

This first officer is now a captain here and unless they have been unusually unlucky has not experienced much more than the easy flying we do on a daily basis, up, down and cruise mostly with the autopilot on.

When the time comes, the experience or foundation we gained from doing the crap work or instructing etc.. is all we can rely on to get us safely through, lacking the foundation can only lead to problems.

I can almost always tell if someone went through a quickie train for the airlines type school. They can cruise through the ground school and simulators (because they have rehearsed over and over at their school and in the sim) but in the end the foundation was never built correctly and no quickie school teaches the basics, they concentrate on the CRJ or whatever.

I see bad decisions daily and most are of a fundamental nature as described above and most all are made by people who did the quickie school and were hired with 250 to 350 hrs.

These are the captains today at regionals and when the next hireing boom happens our cockpits will be filled with more.

I blame the airline management as much as anyone else. When times are tough the standards go down when good they go up. If they really cared about the safety of the traveling public I should think the standard of experience should stay constant.