How!?

[cvsfly]

I've had brief experience with MAPD. Got my ATP with them. Gave me the opportunity to do some high density flying and do some skiing in Telluride afterwards as well. No real complaints. I didn't think I got what was advertised in the quality of training. It was basically - here study this (no formal ground school), here are some pointers on flying the BE-58, expect this on the checkride. That was fine, but the name an advertizing hinted at more. So I paid a higher rate to get some dual in a BE-58. Yes I did get the chance to interview with a MESA airline afterward, but of course no guarantee and none expected. Didn't get selected out of the 80 that showed up for the MESA 10 min interview (with another applicant) and written exam. Oh well. Do what you want. More power to you. I just think it is a poor investment in general to pay that kind of money for that kind of job - opportunity. Nothing is guarenteed and those that claim to guarentee a job are the problem ones. No disrespect to the MAPD program, I'm sure its fine. Just buyer beware and don't complain afterwards that you are more in debt and that the current employment situation will not allow you to get hired with a 1000 hrs. Yes, I do have a problem with the regional being a training ground for a 500 hr. pilot who has never taken a plane more than 2 states away and never shot an actual approach down to minimums with my family riding on board. You can't learn everything in a class room or simulator. But you will keep these training schools in business and the small local schools and local aviation businesses will eventually fade away.

 

[rumpletumbler]

You won't have the experience at 250 hours or even at 500. I've been lucky enough during my 450 or so to have gotten about 70 of it in a Metro and 30 or so in Citations. However, I was in no way qualified to operate either of those aircraft with authority and was most likely more of a burden than a help to the Captain in every situation I was in...so while it was fun it wasn't productive. In no circumstance does anyone IMO with 500 hours need to be hauling passengers in a turboprop/turbojet aircraft. You just don't have the experience necessary to make command decisions that will ensure your passengers safety at that level and if something were to happen to the Captain at a critical point God help the folks in the back because you will probably be of little good.

 

[Aerosurfer]

rumpletumbler You won't have the experience at 250 hours or even at 500. I've been lucky enough during my 450 or so to have gotten about 70 of it in a Metro and 30 or so in Citations. However, I was in no way qualified to operate either of those aircraft with authority and was most likely more of a burden than a help to the Captain in every situation I was in...so while it was fun it wasn't productive. In no circumstance does anyone IMO with 500 hours need to be hauling passengers in a turboprop/turbojet aircraft. You just don't have the experience necessary to make command decisions that will ensure your passengers safety at that level and if something were to happen to the Captain at a critical point God help the folks in the back because you will probably be of little good.

Bold words, and in no way an accurate opinion. Like it was said above he's not just buying a seat to ride along, you still have to pass multiple testings, systems, sim and checkride. What ever training you had on the Metro, Citation clearly was not very formal, and obviously you were not a "required crewmember" so your involvement was limited in the first place. If you were I think that speaks of your ability as a pilot, and especially a CFI to learn new training. After 30 hours and especially 70, you should have a descent grasp on what you are flying, at any amount of total time to be more than a "burden." Its one thing to Fly an airplane you are not trained on, but its something else to be on a two pilot aircraft as a crewmember.

At what point after 500 hours does someone have the experience to make those descisions "IYO"?

 

[rumpletumbler]

I don't know that there is a magic number I just don't think that at 500 hours you have the experience level to fly an RJ etc. with 50 folks in the back....your welcome to disagree....you have the right to be wrong.

 

[Aerosurfer]

So if you were offered a position tomarrow Fly an RJ or a Dash8 you would turn it down?

You are either a liar or an idiot

 

[urflyingme?!]

Nicely put.... Nicely put....

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't know that there is a magic number I just don't think that at 500 hours you have the experience level to fly an RJ etc. with 50 folks in the back....your welcome to disagree....you have the right to be wrong.

Well shame on the FAA then for allowing pilots with less than 500 hours to complete the 121 training curriculum, multiple written tests, sim check, oral exam, and OE/line checks required to fly for a regional airline. Not to mention FO evaluations.

 

[rumpletumbler]

So if you were offered a position tomarrow Fly an RJ or a Dash8 you would turn it down?

You are either a liar or an idiot

Well in a round about way I already have. I have a friend who is in the teens in senority with ASA who asked me if he could take my resume in and I thought it was a waste of time but he did so. Shortly thereafter I got two pieces of mail....one was a form letter from ASA with the 1200 hour minimums blah blah blah.......and guess what the other one was? It was an offer from FlightSafety to give them $30,000 to go through a course which ended with an interview with "guess who?" After having a laugh about it with my wife and some friends I prompty threw it in the garbage lest someone might find it and take them up on that offer. However were I up to speed etc. and didn't have to buy my job I'd probably take it with the understanding that I felt underqualified and would hope that I would become qualified through experience without being a problem to other pilots, the company, or pax.

 

[sf3boy]

rumpletumbler,
I have to say you hold yourself to higher standards than most other pilots. The "me first and only" syndrom seems to be rampant in the regionals (i.e Mesa, Mesaba passing crud contracts).

I have always wondered why airlines publish minimum time requirements for employment when in the backroom they tell you that those can be "waived" if you got cash in your pocket? Hell, maybe the insurance premiums are so high for low time pilots that this is how the airlines subsidize them.

In the 90's, there were tons of military guys coming out to the private sector since their squadrons and bases were being shut down by the White House, but couldn't get airline jobs. Numerous regionals hired civilians who were only to happy to show up to class with 10 thousand dollars while the military pilots stayed home. It has been my experience that the regionals have always been willing to roll the dice on safety if the revenue is increased.

Just look at current Mesaba maintenance.

 

[thesource]

If I might add to this thread.
I've been a captain at my airline for 5 years and have flown with many low time newhires both on the E-120 and CJR.
I would agree that this fast track stuff teaches students to manipulate the controls, run checklists for a specific aircraft most notably the CJR, and otherwise do the job they practiced for at some of these schools that train you for that coveted right seat at a real airline.

However, I have said it 1000 times, everything I know about flying I learned from the 6 years I spent Instructing during the last down turn in the late 80's early 90's.

I'll provide one example of many to illustrate my point.
I was assigned to fly with a new hire who had about 300 hrs.
The first leg was an empty leg and I let the FO take it. It was daylight vfr with less than 10 kts wind from about 30 degrees off the nose. FO was brilliant with the paperwork, ran great checklists, radio work was weak.
We proceeded to takeoff. When the aircraft broke ground it yawed slightly (emphasis slightly) as the E-120 and many aircraft will do. The first officers response was to apply the wrong rudder. As the aircraft began to roll opposite aileron was applied, the more it rolled the more rudder was added.
Since we were empty I thought I would watch to see how far it would go. As we were about 40 degrees off runway heading and in a 40 degree bank headed for the terminal I decide to take control I completed the Takeoff and we continued to our destination.

When we reached cruise I asked what had happened. The Fo siad that they thought we had lost an engine. Bad choice with a perfectly opperating aircraft and a normal crosswind.

This illustrates my point you can train a monkey to manipulate controls and switches (NASA prover this 40 years ago) but in the real world it is experience that we as pilots have to rely on. Experiance we get from instructing, crop dusting, towing banners, flying cargo at night, flying different kinds of aircraft.

This first officer is now a captain here and unless they have been unusually unlucky has not experienced much more than the easy flying we do on a daily basis, up, down and cruise mostly with the autopilot on.

When the time comes, the experience or foundation we gained from doing the crap work or instructing etc.. is all we can rely on to get us safely through, lacking the foundation can only lead to problems.

I can almost always tell if someone went through a quickie train for the airlines type school. They can cruise through the ground school and simulators (because they have rehearsed over and over at their school and in the sim) but in the end the foundation was never built correctly and no quickie school teaches the basics, they concentrate on the CRJ or whatever.

I see bad decisions daily and most are of a fundamental nature as described above and most all are made by people who did the quickie school and were hired with 250 to 350 hrs.

These are the captains today at regionals and when the next hireing boom happens our cockpits will be filled with more.

I blame the airline management as much as anyone else. When times are tough the standards go down when good they go up. If they really cared about the safety of the traveling public I should think the standard of experience should stay constant.