How to log hours

[heavy_d]

I was just wondering what the best way to log hours and get ratings. I thought about getting a 152 but i heard the saying, "If it flys floats or fornicates its cheaper to rent than to own. Is that true?

 

[bobbysamd]

Building experience

I was just wondering what the best way to log hours and get ratings. I thought about getting a 152 but i heard the saying, "If it flys floats or fornicates its cheaper to rent than to own. Is that true?

Assuming your goal is to be a professional pilot, the best way to log hours and get ratings is to obtain all ratings through CFI, find a job, and be paid to fly and log hours.

Having said that, what you've heard is probably correct. Not considering insurance, aircraft ownership is expensive in terms of maintenance alone. I have a friend who owned a Warrior for a time. He was nickeled and dimed for maintenance for as long as he owned the airplane - which wasn't very long. All aircraft need annuals, which, even if you help your A & P, are expensive. Even if you find an airplane with a new or recently TBOed engine, you will eventually have to replace or overhaul the engine. I do not remember a 152's Lycoming TBO, but I am sure it is 2000 hours. Engine overhauls are expensive. You might build enough time before TBO, but TBO would be a consideration when selling the airplane. I haven't mentioned tiedown or hangaring rentals, state ownership taxes, if any, and, don't forget, fuel.

It has been said that the two greatest days of an airplane owner's life are the day he/she buys his/her airplane and the day he/she sells it.

Maybe a partnership might work, but, if it were me, I would never buy an airplane.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Flying Illini]

Bobby is correct, aircraft are expensive to own, but as with anything, renting is always more expensive. This, of course, depends on your use. If you just want to get your ppl and inst. you may be looking at 60-100 hrs. Ownership however, could be a migraine waiting to happen. An option that's in the middle of owning and renting would be "block" time. Some places will allow you to buy blocks (say 10 hrs) of time at a discounted rate (maybe $80 an hour instead of $90). It just depends on where you go to obtain your ratings.
That said, I had a student who bought his own airplane (he was working on his instrument rating). It was an old 152...VFR only. He could go fly whenever he wanted and his hourly costs were around $38. Our flight school didn't have any VFR only aircraft but still, the lowest price in our fleet was $80/hr for an IFR 152.
The above figure sounds great, but keep in mind, you won't just pay 38/hr, you will pay $400/mo for the aircraft, then maybe $1200 a year for insurance, etc. The hourly cost is just based on how many hours you fly it.

Personally, I would like to own an airplane...but I can't afford it. I can't afford to rent either.

 

[English]

Be careful about taking opinions from those who have never owned an aircraft. Many people make assumptions, or have heard stories, but that does not take the place of direct experience.


I'd recommend buying an aircraft and going the CFI route - BOTH are great ways to go. I did it this way and my worst experience was the day I sold the airplane. I'd buy it back in a heartbeat if the flying club I sold it to would sell it back.

Although I put about 800 hours on the plane and engine when it sold, I still made a profit after owning it only three years.

Find partners that have some financial means. I don't mean rich - I mean people that can afford to own. The more you fly the airplane, the cheaper the hourly cost to you will be. At one point, my hourly cost for my Hawk XP was down to $36 and hour, because I was flying it so much. That included engine reserves, insurance, oil, fuel, etc...the only thing it didn't cover was the tie-down.

Find someone at your airport that owns, buy them a soda and start asking questions. There are also some good books on the subject.

 

[FracCapt]

It all depends on the specific aircraft, how much you fly it, and how you treat it. I was 1/4 owner in a Turbo Cessna 210 many years ago, and our operating cost was $34 per hour at one point. That includes fuel, MX, hangar, etc.. We flew it, on average, 80 hours a month(between 4 of us). One of the owners was an A&P/IA, and we ALL assisted when it came time for annual. Luckily, we only paid for fuel, parts, hangar, and insurance. We didn't have to pay for MX since one of the owners was an A&P, and we all pitched in on the work.

 

[JetBlast2000]

I would agree with English and FracCapt. Its all depends on the type of a/c and how often you fly. The more you fly your own a/c is proportional to the amount you'll save if you rent. For example; If you fly your own a/c for 100 over the course of 2 years, you overall cost will be higher than if you rented. If you fly 500 hrs of the same time period, your costs will be substantially reduced. Either way it's expensive. If you do get your own a/c, get a good A$P as FracCapt advised.
Good luck.
JB2k

 

[heavy_d]

I think I may have found a good plane. It is a 1979 piper tomahawk. It has a 700hr. factory overhaul with 2400 tbo, 3700 tt, ifr certified, cheap gps, good but wierd desert paint job, good interior, no damage...
the guy wants $25,000. I think its worth the money because only once in a blue moon do you see these cheap planes with a factory engine and low total time. this is also cheaper than most 152's of the same hours and stuff. what do you guys think? because i have heard tomahawks flew terrible compared to 152's but I have never flown one.

thanks for all of the suggestions so far

 

[typhoonpilot]

Tomahawk info

I soloed in the Traumahawk in 1981. Even did three turn spins in one and am still alive to say that.

Check out this article though, it has good info:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/articles/0107.cfm


Typhoonpilot

 

[Snakum]

I've been poking around airports and websites lately to figure what ownership would cost me, as I am considering buying a small IFR-cert'd two/2+2 place.. Here's what I've gotten so far ...

I have found a few IFR-certified C150/152s in the mid-atlantic with less than 750 hours on 2000 or 2400 TBO engines, in pretty good shape, recent annuals, good paint, etc. Assuming a thorough pre-buy to ensure no surprises, I have figured a monthly payment of around $325, and likely ops costs of around $30/hr. I can put 1000 hours on her easily in two years due to the huge number of business trips, seeing family trips, and visiting GF at school trips I am making already or will be making. Judging from what I've seen of aircraft prices since I started flying in 95, I can sell her for close to what I paid in a few years and will come out way ahead than if I'd rented for all those trips. I'll also be at 135 mins (hey ... SE piston time is SE piston time, whether it's a Piper Malibu or a Beech Skipper ) and can wait to instruct till such time as I can devote more attention to it (and I do want to instruct eventually).

Based on what C172s are going for now, I wish I'd bought one in 1995. I was looking at 1/2 of an N-model with a fresh engine and loaded panel for $15,000.

Work the numbers for yourself, then decide.

Minh

 

[heavy_d]

I have also been looking for 2+2's and your right the prices have skyrocketed in10 yrs. I think now a well equiped 172 with a low time engine and frame is about $60,000.
Good luck!

 

[cessna_driver2]

I think I may have found a good plane. It is a 1979 piper tomahawk. It has a 700hr. factory overhaul with 2400 tbo, 3700 tt, ifr certified, cheap gps, good but wierd desert paint job, good interior, no damage...
the guy wants $25,000. I think its worth the money because only once in a blue moon do you see these cheap planes with a factory engine and low total time. this is also cheaper than most 152's of the same hours and stuff. what do you guys think? because i have heard tomahawks flew terrible compared to 152's but I have never flown one.

thanks for all of the suggestions so far

Parts are hard to find for the Tomahawk. Piper does not support the a/c either so alot of the parts out there are new surplus or in servicable condition. They are getting harder and harder to find.

Good luck though

 

[heavy_d]

What do you think about high total time 152's?

 

[Lead Sled]

The cheapest way to get training and build time? Absolutely no question - sign up and go to work for Uncle Sam. Good training, good equipment and he'll let low-time inexperienced guys fly everything that he has. Oh, there's just one catch...

Buying an airplane is a very viable option, but there are others - join a "not for profit" flying club or take partners in on something. Just make sure your bases are covered legally. (Partnership agreements, insurance, etc.) Personally, back when I was working on my commercial and instrument ratings I bought an airplane with a couple of other guys. When I finished my training, we sold the airplane and made enough to cover the costs of our training and I actually had a little money left over.

It absolutely makes no difference what type of airplane you learn to fly in - high wing, low wing, Piper, Cessna, whatever. However, there are some real benefits of having some "tailwheel time". They make for some very demanding training, but you'll be the better pilot for it. The problem is finding a COMPETENT taildragger instructor. Now days, they are getting very hard to find. Not just any CFI will hack it. If you go the taildragger route, you'll most likely have to budget some money for some time in something with a full instrument panel for your checkride and a few hours of training. However, you'll still be able to do most of your training in it.

If you decide to buy an airplane do it based on ease of resale. You're not going to own it forever, so look for something nice. You'll probably want to avoid that ratty 150 out on the back tiedowns. Just find a good airplane that you'll be able to easily resale, but make sure that you (and your partners) can handle the maintenance, payments and insurance. Stack the odds in your favor - look for something with a fresh annual from a reputable shop and a low to mid-time engine. Hopefully you'll be able to jump in, do your training and jump out before any serious work needs to be done. With a bit of research and a bit of luck you might be able to break even or better. I've owned several airplanes (and gliders) and I've never lost money on any of them.

When it comes to building experience, I believe that flight instructing is a necessary "evil". Actually, you can make of it whatever you want. Personally, I find it to be (for the most part) an enjoyable endeavor.

I would recommend that you get your CFI and spend some "quality time" teaching. Remember, in any teaching situation, it's always the teacher who learns the most. The same thing applies in aviation. Getting your CFI and actively instructing for a while will teach you things about flying that you will only learn through instructing. In my case, I had an ATP and over 3,000 hours before I got my CFI. I thought that somehow I had "dodged a bullet" by being able to go directly into Part 135 (charter) flying after I got my commercial and instrument rating. I was wrong. I ended up getting my CFI certificate so that I could keep my hand in flying while I went to school full time to finish up my degree. I learned a lot and to this day the lessons are very valuable and useful. Don't avoid becoming a CFI, in my opinion it is a valuable step in your aviation career.

The real question is how long do you need to be an active CFI? My personal opinion is that you'll probably get about all your going to get out of flight instructing after 500 to 1000 hours. Remember, there's a big difference between 2,000 hours of experience and 1 hour of experience repeated 2,000 times. Flight instruction tends to fall into the latter category.

Oh well, you guys can probably tell that I've got entirely too much time on my hands - the airplane is in the shop this week for maintenance.

Lead Sled

 

[pilotmyf]

Log all hours in an airplane, thinking of flying and watching airplanes. Also log all the time working to pay for the airplanes(this excludes the parent financed students)

 

[heavy_d]

Log all hours in an airplane, thinking of flying and watching airplanes. Also log all the time working to pay for the airplanes(this excludes the parent financed students)

isnt that against far's? or no?

 

[pilotmyf]

isnt that against far's? or no?

What are FARs?