How to get hired

[Indigo]

Knowing people

It is great to lend a helping hand but proceed with caution.

No kidding, this is true even for people you THINK you know. But then I just had someone I referred for a job leave after a few months without a even "good-bye" or "go to hell".

Once burned, twice shy.

 

[English]

Bobbysamd,

Hope I'm wrong, but I think pilotyip is snubbing you. He's avoided the question twice.

 

[bobbysamd]

Yeah . . . .

Hope I'm wrong, but I think pilotyip is snubbing you. He's avoided the question twice.

. . . . he's not the first (and it's only for discussion's sake). I eventually met and exceeded the mins for others and never heard from them, while other pilots I knew who had less time got interviews and were hired - something I never understood, though I have my theories. Read my other stories.

It's nice to know that in these troubled times that some things don't change.

 

[pilotyip]

Interview yes

Did not I say "I would interview him in a heartbeat with his time"? From his profile I would say he is trainable, from the posts I have seen he has been a gentleman, that would make him likeable, and lastly he has a high potential to be retainable. He has the hours to make Capt. in one year. Of course he would have to wait in seniority for Capt. once he had the time. An almost ideal candidate. Was there something else in the question I snubbed?

 

[bobbysamd]

"Resume" "response"

Did not I say "I would interview him in a heartbeat with his time"? From his profile I would say he is trainable, from the posts I have seen he has been a gentleman, that would make him likeable, and lastly he has a high potential to be retainable. He has the hours to make Capt. in one year. Of course he would have to wait in seniority for Capt. once he had the time. An almost ideal candidate. Was there something else in the question I snubbed?

Thanks, Yip, for responding to my hypothetical and for providing a fair answer. And, yes, being older would make it probable that I would stay and provide a return on your training investment, and be able to contribute in other ways besides driving around the iron. The same message I tried to convey fourteen years ago.

 

[English]

Bobbysamd, this sounds like an invitation to apply. Maybe this could be your break back into flying?

 

[pilotyip]

only answering

Where not you the one who said I did not answer his question? We have never hired anyone who did not apply.

 

[bobbysamd]

Wellllll . . . . .

Bobbysamd, this sounds like an invitation to apply. Maybe this could be your break back into flying?

I truly appreciate Yip's reply, but he has current pilots in his stack. I wouldn't even hire myself over someone who is current. Besides, my life has changed and, for better or worse, I am committed to what I do now - though I am always willing to talk to anyone who wants to talk to me. I just wanted to see if I could have rated an interview with his company, and I wanted to hear it from the man who hires. My non-interview, non-hiring stories are familiar to most regular readers.

 

[enigma]

Re: Wellllll . . . . .

.

Bobby, you're only 21 posts away from equaling your total time.

Thanks for participating.

enigma

 

[pilotyip]

currency

Currency is not a show stopper we have hired guys who have been out of the cockpit for 10 years. If you are a professional pilot, TJ PIC, military, or 121 background, you have proven you can fly. It is like riding a bicycle, it comes back. When you go through a professional training program you can come back up to speed pretty quick. Military puts guys in non-flying slots for years at a time and then back into a cockpit slot with no problem. Currency is not a big deal to us. AE used to have requirement for 500 hours in the last year to apply. In 1996, I applied at AE and was not interviewed. I am not sure if my 452 Turbo prop PIC in the previous year disqualified me from the the right seat of a 340. Maybe they used it like the college degree, a means to cut down on the number of applications. I quess when times got tuff in the late 90's they dropped this rule.

 

[bobbysamd]

Posts = Total Time (soon)

Bobby, you're only 21 posts away from equaling your total time.

I knowwww . . . . .

Thanks for participating.

The pleasure is all mine, really. Sure wish it could count for currency, somehow, though Yip says non-currency isn't a show stopper . . . . but, as a practical matter, for someone like me compared to others in his pile, it probably would be.

What is a yoke??

 

[bobbysamd]

Currency

In 1996, I applied at AE and was not interviewed. I am not sure if my 452 Turbo prop PIC in the previous year disqualified me from the the right seat of a 340 . . . .

That's pretty stupid, given your overall background. I think we'd all agree that the big picture is frequently ignored. That's what gets me about pilot hiring - demonstrated inability among many in H.R. to think outside the box. Sometimes, not all the pegs are perfectly square, but with a little bit of planing they fit just fine.

 

[iaflyer]

Airtran

I must point out that the people who were hired at Airtran from USA Jet were (to the best of my knowledge) prior to 9/11 and the 500 hours req. at a 121 carrier. I had a friend at Airtran walk my resume into Jill Ndiffer within the last few months. I had about 4000 hours, 1100 PIC in the DA-20, and met all the other requirements.

Her response? Get 500 hours 121 time and call her back... It appears they don't look at the Falcon as 121 time, no matter where it is.

iaflyer

 

[pilotyip]

Not what Jill told me?

I will talk to Jill, because we discussed this at the last Air Think Conf. If it keeps you at USA Jet, then it is the right she changed her mind. (that is assuming you still are at USA Jet)

 

[atpcliff]

Hi Pilot YIP!

Eagle
Eagle didn't change their policy in the late '90s. They called me at home, after they got my resume, but when I told them I wasn't in a current flying job, they said I wasn't qualified.

AirTran 500 PIC 121
I would like to hear what Jill has to say. I know of at least one Falcon guy who thinks that his PIC time will count at AirTran, but I've been telling him they won't count it. If they will count USA Jet Falcon time as 121 (since it is a 121 airline) I will let him know.

Editing
I put the edited Falcon stuff above your mailbox when I was in YIP in between two trips. I will call U on Mon. to remind U to get that stuff-it's done.

Cliff
MCI

 

[turpentyine]

Re: Age discrimination

I appreciate it, but it's not in the cards. I am "doomed" to work in the legal field until I retire. Things could be worse, though.

(At 53, I am also too old for TAB Express! )

Luck plays a great deal in hiring, of course. But older career-changers face an uphill battle compared to those under thirty, and even those under thirty-five.

I appreciate it, as always. BBQ, at Brothers, will be on moi.

For the sake of discussion, I still hope that Yip will respond to my post above about how my quals, which greatly exceed his FO mins and are close enough for his Captain mins, stack up against his applicant pool.

Are there any airlines with programs like TAB Express here in the NYC area?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Are there any airlines with programs like TAB Express here in the NYC area?

The best answer to that question is you do not want to pay-for-training. Search other discussions on the topic to find out why.

 

[turpentyine]

what does that exactly mean though can you clarify for me please. because when you are taking flying lessons at the local fbo you are paying for flight training too arent you, so whats the difference then?

 

[350DRIVER]

what does that exactly mean though can you clarify for me please. because when you are taking flying lessons at the local fbo you are paying for flight training too arent you, so whats the difference then?

The main difference is that you will not be able to get a job without the required licenses and ratings, thus you must pay a flight school for this training. People undercut this industry when they "whore" themselves out and "pay" to rent a right seat for X amount of hours at a Tab or Gulfjoke operation. It is not "required", is a shortcut, and allows these operations not to have to hire "qualified" guys with "real world experience" and pay them what they are worth. $8.00/hr to play with the gear and radios in a 1900 is nothing more than a slap in the face, especially after you just paid them more than $18,000 for that right seat.



be smart, bad choices have been known to come back and haunt more than a few.....

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

How did this morph into a P-F-T discussion?

what does that exactly mean though can you clarify for me please. because when you are taking flying lessons at the local fbo you are paying for flight training too arent you, so whats the difference then?

Here's the difference: Initial flight training is an education and vocation issue. Unless you know someone wealthy and generous who will train you for your initial ratings for free, anyone embarking for this vocation must pay for initial training. "Initial training" means all ratings to equip you to enter the workforce at your chosen profession. Military pilots might not remit money for their flight training but they must commit to several years of military service.

Notice that I am not limiting it to aviation. Accountants have to earn their B.S. in B.A. English teachers have to earn their B.A. in English. Auto mechanics, etc. might attend some kind of trade school or vo-tech to receive knowledge and gain credentials for their fields. All of these folks, and notice again that I am not mentioning pilots, have to pay tuition, fees, room and board, and for their books.

"Pay-for-training" is strictly an employment issue. If, after completing your training and you are offered a job, and, as a condition of employment you must give the employer money to pay for your training with that employer, you are paying for training. This is not the same as paying your school to attend and receiving education.

Hope that helps. Once more, please run a board search on P-F-T for plenty of discussions on this issue, pro and con.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey!

Hey this is a college degree vs TJ PIC thread, if you want to get into PFT start a new thread.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Hey!

Hey this is a college degree vs TJ PIC thread, if you want to get into PFT start a new thread.

I think we need to convert it to a BBQ thread, much more interesting!

 

[nitrogen]

LOL I can hear Yip in the interview

"Yeah listen, we see you have a bachelors, a masters, and a Doctorate in Aviation Psychology. We are doing our best not to hold these degrees against you but it isn't easy. We prefer toothless high school drop outs who have never held a job or committed to anything for longer than 2 months. If you had 3000 hours before you were 23 you're hired even if you have a felony conviction for murder."

Yip cracks me up. Here are some facts Yip.

94% of all applicants hired at the majors on the last cycle had bachelors degrees or higher. It was 97% at the height of competition.

Breaking it down even further 100% of all applicants hired at Delta or United had bachelors degrees or higher because they REQUIRED a degree.

In other words you put yourself at an EXTREME disadvantage by not having a degree.

There's a great truth here. Don't ever take advice from someone unless they are actually in a position to give that advice. If Yip was in charge of hiring at a major airline and told you not to get a degree you could take that advice with some confidence of validity.

Since he works at a bottom of the barrel cargo carrier its real hard to take him too seriously.

Want to get hired by a major??

Get the degree to keep yourself competitive against the other applicants. Its totally irrelevant whether you need the degree to fly the airplane if you never get in the door because you don't have one.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: LOL I can hear Yip in the interview

"Yeah listen, we see you have a bachelors, a masters, and a Doctorate in Aviation Psychology. We are doing our best not to hold these degrees against you but it isn't easy. We prefer toothless high school drop outs who have never held a job or committed to anything for longer than 2 months. If you had 3000 hours before you were 23 you're hired even if you have a felony conviction for murder."

Now that, THAT is FUNNY!!!!!

 

[350DRIVER]

Since he works at a bottom of the barrel cargo carrier its real hard to take him too seriously.

What makes you think that USA JET is a bottom of the barrel cargo operation? I shall patiently await your answer.. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.. The bottom line is that quite a few people have been hired in recent times at Air Tran, America West, Southwest, ATA, and many other carriers without a 4 year degree. Many more have been hired at the regional level without even a 2 year degree.

Breaking it down even further 100% of all applicants hired at Delta or United had bachelors degrees or higher because they REQUIRED a degree.

Ok??? and when was the last time UAL or DAL was hiring pilots? Kind of thought so....


3 5 0

 

[pilotyip]

Not true

UAL has hired non-degreed pilots with quality TJ PIC; I can PM you the names and dates if you are a non-believer. Delta I think as been pure since the mid-70. In fact, they had your degree limited to something like only 273 schools nationwide from which they accepted degrees. Lets face it almost everyone has a degree, they are easy to get, and therefore most people being hired have degrees. Check out these statistics, if 97% of the applicants applying at the majors have college degrees, it would follow that 97% of pilots hired would have college degrees. On the other side if only 3% of the pilots applying did not have degrees, and only made up 3% of those being hired. The chances of being hired would be the same.

 

[freightdogfred]

I started flying heavy jets outta YIP (aka Dirt City) back in the eighties.... I remember old man Rosenbalm made it a point to let you know you were there because you couldn't get a job with the majors..(Too many DUI's, too old, too fat ,NO COLLEGE.) It was a fun job for me as a starry eyed kid, flying all over the world in a four engine jet. But even after all that jet time, A&P license, ATP, FE license, no "Major" would even interview me,because I didn't have a 4 year degree. The desire to work at a "Major" has long passed, but I'd still like to interview with one. In fact, I had my suit picked out at an upscale Men's store at the Sawgrass Mills mall in FLL. It was a light blue liesure suit with pinstripes, pink tie, white shoes with spats and I think it had a white hat I'd give two weeks pay to walk into my United interview with that getup.

PilotYip, prove you're a standup guy and offer Bobby an interview, right here on flightInfo....

 

[pilotyip]

Shots at USA Jet

Alot of guys take shots at USA Jet and the whole YIP cargo scene. However some have figured out it is not that bad of a place to work and we are attracting quality candidates. Profile last class 1- USAF (ret) A-10 driver, UAL lay off; 2 regional 121 Capts; and one YIP DA-20 freight dog. All had degrees except the YIP DA-20 guy, but he is still young.

 

[bobbysamd]

Cuisine threads

I think we need to convert it to a BBQ thread, much more interesting!

Or a sushi thread.

 

[bobbysamd]

Interview offer

PilotYip, prove you're a standup guy and offer Bobby an interview, right here on flightInfo....

He addressed my query above, which I appreciated, and here's why:

1. He and I have gone at it for a year and a half on the degree issue. He knows that I have a B.S. in B.A. and advanced education in the form of my paralegal certificate. You need a B.S. or B.A. to get into most paralegal schools, or be studying for the degree concurrently.

2. He knows how old I am or read my profile, and my age apparently is not an issue. Based on my other aviation hiring experiences, that is refreshing. My specific question was how I would have stacked up against his other applicants.

As a practical matter, he really does have better-qualified applicants in his stack, simply by virtue that they're current and I am not. I haven't seen an airline app in ten years, but most ask about currency. So, obviously, it is an important hiring consideration, and rightfully so. Companies have a right to expect you to be current - and I'm not one who always comes out on the company's side. In this situation, fair is fair.