How to get hired

[350DRIVER]

350, Always happy to help someone let off a little steam. Do you feel better now?

I was merely attempting to make a point that age really is not a factor if the person has a hard work ethic and strong desire to succeed. I agree with you about the college comparison, easier without a doubt but I do not think that what Yip is suggesting is close to being impossible to pull off at all.


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[Typhoon1244]

...age means what?

Quick history lesson: in 1966, Eastern was hiring 19-year-olds with three hundred hours. I think some majors were even doing ad initio training.

How times change...

 

[350DRIVER]

No history lesson needed... I was well aware of what Eastern had done as well what UAL had done back in the day.

Times have changed, never disputed that.

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ps>> put that adorable picture of your son back up, better than that airplane.

 

[pilotyip]

It can be done

I post the stories about 23 old TJ PIC, because I witness it on a regular basis in my end of the business. I then see these non-college grads with TJ PIC go on to jobs, the majors, (when they were hiring) the LLC's and the fractionals. Everyone of those jobs could mean a good career, except the majors with the all the layoff's. Here is how they do it. They get their Comm/Mel/Inst and they go everywhere in the country ADS, TOL, YIP, ELP, and find a 135 operator with jets or Turbo props requiring a SIC, who treats pilots like dirt, you know the $250 wk, no time off, no pre- deim. They show a willingness to work under those conditions until they get thier 1200 hours and 135 IFR PIC requirements and they then start shopping for the next job. Then they move up or stay put and make Captain. We happen to be one of the places they try to come to. Our minimums are 1200TT 750 MEL, and you would then need 3000TT 1500 MEL to bid for DA-20 Captain. They are normally single, alot come from Alaska, the wild west of flying. I guess the thing they have in common is a goal and the motivation to go where the job is, and put up almost anything to get the hours on their resume. It was ask how do these non-college grads get jobs at Spirit, AirTran, Netjets, I am just passing along what I have witnessed. This is not the track for everyone, but it is one that works and a viable option for those so inclinded. Thank you for your time.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination thread drift

Get off the "age" issue, means very little if anything. No one will be given a "free ride" due to age nor do the younger generation of pilots have it any easier than a 40yr old getting hired into the right seat of a regional jet.

(emphasis added)

My good friend, having been there, I hasten to disagree. That is a topic for other threads. In any event, it's still harder, if not impossible, to compete with younger people with like credentials.

Originally posted by pilotyip
Our minimums are 1200TT 750 MEL, and you would then need 3000TT 1500 MEL to bid for DA-20 Captain.

Look at my quals at the left, Yip. I was single and available (!) when I was current with those quals. I realize I am slightly light on the multi time for DA-20 captain. Would've you interviewed me? Inquiring minds want to know.

I suspect the answer will be "no." I applied for similar jobs years ago with my credentials being close to those times and heard nothing. There was a DC-3 operator in Ypsilanti that hired at somewhat low times. I applied to him with somewhat low times. I placed a followup call, which was returned. I returned that call, left a message, and got no further.

There is much more to it than having hours and determination.

 

[learflyer]

Re: why I posted the thread

[beginning and it is something that can be gotten later.

Gotten? What's that German?

 

[350DRIVER]

bobbysamd,

my friend, I can understand where you are coming from on this issue since you have seen it happen to you but I tend to think that this is not the norm with regards to this issue. I have seen many pilots who were much older be successful in getting to the regional level, MAPD has taken many career changers in the late 30's and 40's and they have placed them in the RJ. Back in 97" Gary Lightfoot** who was in his early 40's at the time, very little flight time, etc, went through the program and he is now the asst. chief pilot at Freedom Airlines. I have seen many others in his exact same position (career changers) do the exact same thing at Mesa and at other regionals. I tend to think that "luck" has some leverage here but surely age shouldn't be a factor to stop someone from pursuing their dream. I would be willing to bet the farm that if you got current again, brushed up in the knowledge areas, etc, that you could be successful in making it to the regional or corporate level. I have not a doubt in my mind on this one. I would absolutely love to pursued and convince you to get back into this industry since you obviously have the love, desire, and drive to succeed, but I realize the likelihood of this happening is probably the same as McCain accepting the VP nomination from Kerry. It is extremely unfortunate in my opinion that you were not able to get to where you wanted to get to in this industry but it is not too late. It would be an absolute pleasure to share the flight deck with you and to hear your many stories.


I think that if you looked at the ages of new hires all across the board in recent times/classes that you would see that many older guys/gals have been hired.


Since I am sure I cannot talk you into making a second attempt at this industry I will settle for the knowledge, wisdom, experience, etc, that you bring to this board. Doesn't seem like a bad consolation prize. Next time in the Denver area the beer/BBQ is on me.


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disclaimer.....
** I realize he was among the "original" group that crossed over and in no way, shape, or form do I support what he did, etc, to the good group of pilots at Mesa. I have/had no affiliation to Freedom or to him other than a few encounters with him out west.

 

[English]

hey pilotyip,

Everytime I respond to a thread you start, you send me a PM trying to further justify your position.

Please do not send me any more PMs. We can carry on our discussion here in this forum, not in private.

 

[350DRIVER]

Classy, real classy... I guess I shouldn't expect much more though from you. I guess it wouldn't have made too much sense to send that message via a pm.


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[English]

Seeming as I sent him a PM the FIRST time he did this, and he ignored my request, I chose to ask again. I figured if he ignored my request the first time, he must not read PMs. So, this way, he will get my message.

But thanks for making so many assumptions.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

I tend to think that "luck" has some leverage here but surely age shouldn't be a factor to stop someone from pursuing their dream. I would be willing to bet the farm that if you got current again, brushed up in the knowledge areas, etc, that you could be successful in making it to the regional or corporate level. I have not a doubt in my mind on this one.

I appreciate it, but it's not in the cards. I am "doomed" to work in the legal field until I retire. Things could be worse, though.

(At 53, I am also too old for TAB Express! )

Luck plays a great deal in hiring, of course. But older career-changers face an uphill battle compared to those under thirty, and even those under thirty-five.

I appreciate it, as always. BBQ, at Brothers, will be on moi.

For the sake of discussion, I still hope that Yip will respond to my post above about how my quals, which greatly exceed his FO mins and are close enough for his Captain mins, stack up against his applicant pool.

 

[350DRIVER]

bobbysamd,

7 years left at a regional then on to NJ or Options to finish up doesn't sound like too bad of a plan. Ok ok, not going to happen so I will settle for taking you up for a few hours one of these days..

Brothers BBQ sounds like a plan, it will be on me though as a token of my appreciation for all that you bring to this board. The place looks very good. I have not had any good BBQ as of late, surely wish I could get back to HOU or Norman OK more often, ahh those BBQ memories. Never forget that Ramada there....


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[bobbysamd]

Going flying and "getting" hired

I will settle for taking you up for a few hours one of these days.

I'll help with fuel.

And I'm still curious if Yip would call me after viewing my "resume" at the left.

 

[Resume Writer]

Yip,

I just have one question. You mention in this thread that these individuals with TJ PIC in a 135 outfit are getting interviews/jobs at Airtran. I thought they had a requirement of 500 hours at a 121 carrier. Did something change that I missed?

Kathy

 

[350DRIVER]

I thought they had a requirement of 500 hours at a 121 carrier. Did something change that I missed?

I believe this was just recently put into place not too long ago. From the people that I know at AT they are have stated that this req't. is currently being looked at and it may be waved/lifted in the near future. I think this question has also been raised by numerous applicants during the AI job fairs and this also seems to be the information that they are getting. Will it be lifted? Only time shall tell but many pilots without previous 121 time have been hired in recent times at SWA, Frontier, ATA, AWA, and Jet Blue. Two former Flight Options guys are currently in ground school at Frontier.

Is it possible to get to a carrier of choice without the previous 121 time?, sure. I do not see any of the others following in the footsteps of AT.


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[TurboS7]

Miami Air International is looking for pilots 2500TT with a little jet time. Great flying all over the world. 737-800 all Charter. 305-876-3650

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

BobbySamd:

If U R possibly interested in USAJet, I would apply. If U have any questions, PM me and I'll fill U in. I also know U have a shot at Trans States. I met a lady who I thought was a grandma passenger. She was 57 and was a new hire at TSA! I give her a TON of credit!!!

Resume Writer:
USA Jet, where PilotYIP works, is a 121 carrier. Everything, training, etc. is 121 except that the Falcons (they have DC-9s and Falcons) are allowed to operate using -135 crew and duty times with a letter of exemption (this is the way I understand the current situation).

So, the -9 time is -121, and the Falcon time is ???121?135? I guess if U got the interview at AirTran out of the Falcon U and the interviewer could figure out if U met the qualifications.

It's interesting.

Cliff
LIT

PS-Either way U do it, get a 4 yr. degree or more. There are pros and cons to both sides. For example, it doesn't matter what U major in at Harvard or Yale, or what your gradepoint was. Coming out of there U know a ton of important people, and they will find a job 4 U!

 

[bobbysamd]

Career change change (intentional)

If U R possibly interested in USAJet, I would apply. If U have any questions, PM me and I'll fill U in. I also know U have a shot at Trans States. I met a lady who I thought was a grandma passenger. She was 57 and was a new hire at TSA! I give her a TON of credit!!!

I really appreciate it, but my life has changed in the ten and-a-half years that I've been out and I cannot possibly go back. Moreover, as a practical matter, just getting current again would not be enough. I would have to be an employed pilot to garner any interest.

Yip was going on about the min quals at his company, which made me wonder how I would have fit in. I had mostly the same qualifications when I applied for jobs which had the same minimums as Yip's and never heard a word from them. It seems to me that I should have heard something, especially because I exceeded their minimum requirements a couple of times over.

I recall sending stuff once or twice to Trans States fourteen years ago, with no response. However, one of my Riddle colleagues who was easily fifteen years younger than me was hired there. So, if they weren't interested in me then, how would they be interested in me now.

 

[:-)]

YIP is management. It is to his advantage to encourage a class of workers who are willing to work for next to nothing. Yes, young pilots with no degrees and lots of time, do get hired at good jobs. They also set the bar at ground level for the rest of us who intend to make a long career out of aviation.

YIP is not trying to help people get jobs and save the money they would spend on education. He is trying to ensure a continual endentured servant worker class so as to keep his costs low.

 

[350DRIVER]

,

I tend to think you are possibly living in some sort of far off fantasy world, far from the real world that most of us are used to if you truly believe that he is out to "not help" anyone but his current company/employer. Whether or not he is management or just a regular line captain does not really matter here, surely he is not getting any additional incentives, money, or perks by bringing people onboard at his company at less TT with no degree. His company has been used as a stepping stone for years for many and people see going there as a way to build up a substantial amount of jet time in a short given amount of time.


I tend to think that his opinions, experience, knowledge, etc, that he brings to this message board may just be beneficial to some who frequent this board that are looking to move up the ladder.

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bobbysamd, seems like the "offer" has been brought to the table It does seem possible.....

 

[pilotyip]

33K slave wages?

I believe we have the highest first year pay in the on-demand sector for DA-20 F/O's. That is $33K/yr on guar., alot of first year guys make into the $37K-$38K range their first year. We certainly have the highest training costs, Reimbursement of moving expenses for pilots who relocate to YIP. Employees mean alot to us, it is a tuff business to work in and we try to make it as good as possible, hard days off, no junior manning, for guys with the flight time fairly rapid upgrade, 2nd DA-20 Capt $48K/yr. We have a long line of poolies waiting for a class date. Including laid off major guys and military in addition to the 135 non-degreed guys coming up throught the ranks. ")0.. (or whatever, with 14 posts) learn something before you post, you will look smarter.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Resume" "response"

bobbysamd, seems like the "offer" has been brought to the table It does seem possible.....

I'm still waiting for the old man himself (the boss) to answer my query. There have been five or six posts since I brought it up, including his post above, and no response. Just like what I experienced fourteen years ago.

Could it be because I have a college degree and a paralegal certificate?

His pay is par for those with like experience - and willingness to carry a pager and live close to the airport. To answer that interview question, although I'd be taking a pay cut, no, money is not a problem, just as the $12K paid to first-year regional FOs fourteen years ago was similarly not a problem. Somehow, H.R. (always) has it in its head that older people are not willing to start a new job at the bottom of scale.

 

[banned username 2]

TJ PIC will get you the job; the degree gets you the interview.

I'm still trying to figure out how one gets a job without interviewing first??? Because by reading what YIP himself wrote, you will not get an interview without a degree, hence no opportunity of a job offer... I guess he finally realized the importance of the degree in this career field.

 

[:-)]

Re: 33K slave wages?

")0.. (or whatever, with 14 posts) learn something before you post, you will look smarter.

AAAAAAH, but I don't care about whether I look smart or not. This here's an anonymous internet chat room. Duh



Now I'm up to 15 posts, do that make me more smarter?

 

[:-)]

Re: "Resume" "response"

Could it be because I have a college degree and a paralegal certificate?

You certainly sound like a trouble maker to me. No wonder you can't get hired, you might stand up for yourself.

 

[pilotyip]

DA-20 Capt

The degree is only required at the select few in the air carrier industry that requrie a four year degree, and maybe the greater majority of the corp world. You can get the interview at most places without degree. I only changed my stance a the degree requirement to reflect the upper end of hiring world.

 

[AA717driver]

I feel it is vital to have a college degree to fly airplanes. If you can graduate from college while spending huge amounts of time being drunk and chasing anything in a skirt, you can certainly handle being a pilot.

Those without degrees have to prove their "dexterity" in other ways like demonstrating the ability to fly marginal equipment in the middle of the night in Tornado Alley with no radar.

But does that demonstrate your worth better than being able to open a beer can with one hand(pull-tab, not pop-top--I'm old school!) while driving a stick in traffic on a beer run back to the Frat House?

Let the debate rage on! TC

 

[enigma]

But does that demonstrate your worth better than being able to open a beer can with one hand(pull-tab, not pop-top--I'm old school!) while driving a stick in traffic on a beer run back to the Frat House?

Let the debate rage on! TC

The CTC ability demo used to be the ability to climb the ILE beacon tower while liquored up. That was at least a little safer than driving while all liquored up. But not much, a drunk driver could always choose to pull over and sleep. Once up the tower, you had to get down.

enigma

 

[bobbysamd]

Degree for "lower-end" positions

The degree is only required at the select few in the air carrier industry that requrie a four year degree, and maybe the greater majority of the corp world. You can get the interview at most places without degree. I only changed my stance a the degree requirement to reflect the upper end of hiring world.

I submit, Yip, that a person shorts himself/herself without a degree. There are plenty of lower-end jobs, such as instructing in university programs, for openers, in which a degree is required. The degree is still highly desired, if not required outright, at most of the majors.

Okay, Yip, I have 4565 hours and 1380 of multi and a type rating. Your FO requirements are 1200 total and 750 multi and your Captain requirements are 3000 total and 1500 multi. I realize I am 120 hours short of your multi requirements for Captain, but it appears I more than meet your FO requirements. Would you give a guy a chance with those quals? Yes, I have a B.S. and postgrad education for my paralegal certificate. A four-year degree was an entrance requirement for my paralegal school.

 

[pilotyip]

college degree OK

As posted before we have nothing against a college degree, we hire people all the time with degrees. In fact probably 75% of our hires have a degrees, they are common, anyone can get one, most people have them. The whole purpose of the thread is, if you want to be a pilot fly airplanes, the bigger the sooner to start your career. Quality TJ PIC by itself gets the job at all but the select few of the majors, which will not be hiring for the remainder of this decade. Fly build time, get your degee on the side. It is not about the degree, it is about flying airplanes for a living. We would interview you in a heartbeat with your time, and never even ask about the degree, or grade point, during the interview. Because they have nothing to do with flying an airplane. I have nothing against getting a degree. If someone wants to get a degree, get real one from a major university that leads to a good paying job. That person and country will be better off for the effort. If going to college is important for girls, parties, etc, go to college. But it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. The non-college path to the LLC level is a doable career path that can be pursued by those who find the college path is not their desired path.