How to Decertify a Union

[Texx]

If we were offered one more smaller paycut on the condition it would throw all those mesa clowns on the street id do it in a heart beat.

The only clown around industry is you BOY! A BOY in a MANS world.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You can leave the union anytime you want but you can be fired for not paying at least maintenance fees under the RLA. That is a fact. Doesn't matter if your a member or not you still have to pay fees related to the cost of the contract. If you do not pay then you can be fired and the company has no choice. .

It seems your issue is with the RLA. In that case, focus your efforts on CapHill. Holding the wrong organization accountable says more about you.

Everytime I read your posts I think of the scene in Glory, when Morgan Freeman slaps Denzel Washington........

 

[AviatorTx]

Moving on however I think starting the decertification process would be a great wakeup call for ALPO.

So are you trying to just send a message, or actually finish committing career suicide? You have already taken the first step by supporting the race to the bottom, and voting for concessions. Now, going non-union, or picking a union WORSE than ALPA, would finish the job for your pilot group.

If you want to send a message, RECALL YOUR MEC! Of course you will have to put down your crying towel, and GET TO WORK! Start a recall of your LC officers. Have your friends do the same. Once you have new LC officers, they in turn can recall the MEC officers.

Like many are saying... YOU are the Union. It does not matter which union you have... If the same people are running the different union, I argue that the results will be the same, if not worse.

For the record, I am not too happy with ALPA either right now. They ARE though, still the best game in town. Rather than give up, I intend to push for change for the better, from within.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

I don't think resigning from ALPA is the answer. I think the elephant in the room is the fact that the feeders need to form their own union. National will continue to look out for the majors at our expense. Since 9/11 the commuters have become a career and not a time builder like they once were. I say that we would be better served by having a union that invests 100% of it's interest in our careers, not 50% like we have right now. If Duane signs NWA's piece of crap TA, then he will be reinforcing my point. You can't support two groups of people when they both benifit from the others sacrifice. If the majors lose we gaine, and if we gaine the majors lose. There is no way to support both groups equally. Do I hear an AMEN?

-Spartacus
Let the slave revolt begin.

 

[AviatorTx]

Do I hear an AMEN?

Not until someone explains to me how the so called RALPA will be funded.

The only way I will support a RALPA, would be if it had at least "almost" as many resources as ALPA does. The ONLY way this could happen would be either from tax free charitable contributions, or your union dues would be 10% of your paycheck. Guess which it will be?

Based on "regional" pay alone without the subsidy we get from the mainline carriers though ALPA, a straight RALPA would be lucky to have a couple of part time staff attorneys, and a full time secretary working out of a strip center.

Show me how to make it work, and I'm all for it. An operation powerful enough to fight ALPA will have to be funded with millions and millions of dollars. No bucks... No Buck Rogers.

RALPA is like intergalactic manned space flight. GREAT! I'm all for it. Ummm... How do we make it feasible though?

 

[OPECJet]

http://www.nrtw.org/d/deauth_decert_rla.htm

That link will give anyone who is interested the information they need if they feel like they should no longer have to pay dues or be in a union. Its time for EMPLOYEE RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF CHOICE. These unions use the propoganda of "not once more cent". I say lets not give ONE MORE CENT to ALPA. Remember a majority does have to vote on it. Its all about freedom of choice. The days of the mafia running the show must end now. Good luck to all and lets get the ball rolling. Show them how much they really do need our dues. They only care about the majors time for us guys at comair and other places to take down the house! HOLLA

I bet you voted for Bush........

 

[XJ-spartacus]

There are several ways you can make a regional union work. First, you don't have ALPA anywhere in the title. Everyone knows that the industry is turning over, but no one is acknowledging that fact. For obvious reasons, ALPA national doesn't want this to happen and is trying to fight the change. They have been about as successful as I would be trying to stop a lake from turning over in the winter. Do you really think that you are maximizing your gains in negotiations when Duane is looking after the interests at the majors? Right now we have pilots negotiating contracts against attorneys. In the same way that it isn't smart to have an attorney shoot an ILS after a week long instrument course, it isn't smart to have pilots take a week long course and think they can compete in a legal environment. You gain assets the most when you utilize the ones you already have with a greater effeciency. You have heard that you don't work harder, you work smarter. Your aguement about the gap in union dues is a little short sighted. Just think about the overhead that you wouldn't have to support without national officers making 500,000 plus a year? Has anyone looked at what our union pays these individuals? It's not pretty. In any course of a contract a regional airline pilot group will give somewhere in the ballpark of 6 million dollars in union dues. Those same airline unions get roughly 2 million back in negotiation/strike preperation. That 4 million surplus would go further without the lead weights we have sitting on the top of our union. I don't think it's just a pipe dream that the regionals start their own union, I think it will be a neccesary reality in the future. Now that the majors are starting up new regionals (NWA and FYI) to compete against their own feeders, there isn't much time left before national destroys our jobs along with their own. Breaking away is our only way to survive national's self preservation panic.

 

[Plug]

Hey D'Angelo, G-O-J-E-T-S is hiring. You can go there and upgrade almost immediately and make about $20 more an hour. Obviously, money and your personal situation are more important than your fellow pilots, kill several birds with 1 stone. Quit CMR, which stops the dues paying, and join G-O-J-E-T-S and show your true colors.

 

[Holy Shiite]

This guy is a joke. He is no pilot at all. Just some piece of crap management(method?) puke. How's your revolution going tough guy? (or is it gal?)
You can go crawl back under your rock now loser. Time to start a new screen name and start over. What an idiot. HS

 

[D'Angelo]

This guy is a joke. He is no pilot at all. Just some piece of crap management(method?) puke. How's your revolution going tough guy? (or is it gal?)
You can go crawl back under your rock now loser. Time to start a new screen name and start over. What an idiot. HS

Oh its just getting started my friend. Yesterday was the first day. See theres no way in hell ALPA would ever want anyone to see that information I just showed everyone. Trust me theres a lot of people out there that want to see them thrown into the harbor. The only way for things to work is to have someone representing YOU with no other agenda. No chance in hell ALPO doesn't have multiple agendas. They're just now realizing their errors? Too little too late. IMPEACH THOSE SOBs. As soon as im done with my off days ill start spreadin the word. Theres a reason ALPO doesn't want you to know your rights and how to throw the union out. They are scared because a lot more people than you think are fed up with those clowns. They also don't want people to figure out how to get rid of forced unionism. That would end their dictatorship. Boy they sure don't like american values very much do they?

 

[wmuflyguy]

Have you filed a greivance?

HAHA, I can barely get some of the leaders to email me back in a timely fashion. A grievance will do nothing.

 

[DrewBlows]

HAHA, I can barely get some of the leaders to email me back in a timely fashion. A grievance will do nothing.

No...posting on an anonymous message board will do nothing. Filing a greivance may or may not do something, but not filing on has a very certain outcome. You should probably start by picking up a phone and calling your representative and telling them your situation. Chances are that they have heard of the problem and can tell you what they are doing about it, or maybe they don't even know the problem exists and can get the ball rolling. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There are several ways you can make a regional union work. First, you don't have ALPA anywhere in the title. Everyone knows that the industry is turning over, but no one is acknowledging that fact. For obvious reasons, ALPA national doesn't want this to happen and is trying to fight the change. They have been about as successful as I would be trying to stop a lake from turning over in the winter. Do you really think that you are maximizing your gains in negotiations when Duane is looking after the interests at the majors? Right now we have pilots negotiating contracts against attorneys. In the same way that it isn't smart to have an attorney shoot an ILS after a week long instrument course, it isn't smart to have pilots take a week long course and think they can compete in a legal environment. You gain assets the most when you utilize the ones you already have with a greater effeciency. You have heard that you don't work harder, you work smarter. Your aguement about the gap in union dues is a little short sighted. Just think about the overhead that you wouldn't have to support without national officers making 500,000 plus a year? Has anyone looked at what our union pays these individuals? It's not pretty. In any course of a contract a regional airline pilot group will give somewhere in the ballpark of 6 million dollars in union dues. Those same airline unions get roughly 2 million back in negotiation/strike preperation. That 4 million surplus would go further without the lead weights we have sitting on the top of our union. I don't think it's just a pipe dream that the regionals start their own union, I think it will be a neccesary reality in the future. Now that the majors are starting up new regionals (NWA and FYI) to compete against their own feeders, there isn't much time left before national destroys our jobs along with their own. Breaking away is our only way to survive national's self preservation panic.

Your post, sir, suggests a crewroom education....

Your pilot negotiators work with ALPA lawyers in negotiations. Your suggestion that your NC are ineffective says more about you.

In this current environement, not paying for that overhead would destroy regional pilots. I guess you don't know what you got till its gone.

ALPA National salaries? This again? While you are focused on the lost arguement of ALPA National salaries, your management is dismanteling your career. Where is the issue? Your job/career or Nat'l salaries?

I think the MCF speaks for itself, don't you? If you switched to a regional airline it would be called a Minor Contingency Fund, if there was even a fund.

A regional union.....more divide and conquer opportunities for management.

Nowhere in your misrepresented post do you hold management accountable for your current situation.

Nonetheless, I spport the XJ pilots and thier efforts.

 

[finnjl]

My take on ALPA:

(Example) There are three different bus companies in New York. They are all represented by The Bus Drivers Union of New York. Company A has outstanding working rules and real big buses. Company B has all right working rules and medium size buses. Company C has bad working rules and mostly small buses but a few medium size buses. Company C goes on stike. Company A & B do not go on strike as they are happy with their pay. Some passengers are disrupted but they find alternative ways to work. Company C employees eventually agree to go back to work for substandard wages or face losing their jobs all together. They know the boys at company B have options on 50 brand new buses and would love to upgrade to bus captain on the new buses and plus their buddy Joe has been trying for years to get on at company B and if they got those new buses Joe would certainly get an interview. In the meantime company A management says hey wait a minute. Company B bus drivers are only making 50 widgets a day so they insist that their employees at company A take a 39% widget per day pay cut or they will have to liqudate because Company B is making so much money and getting all the new contracts and shiny new buses. Company A passes a temporary agreement to the cuts to match company B pluse 5 widgets.
RESULT
Company A - Still making good money and work rules...could be better but it sure beets working for Company B or C....and god help them if they would ever have to lower themselves to that level

Company B - Not bad, pretty good money, nice house, wife does not work, Joe got the interview and is driving the old bus and Jim is driving a shiny new bus

Comapny C - Still has bad working rules but at least they have a job....
UH OH....Look out Company A & B company C mgt just proposed that if they agree to drive medium to big size buses at company B rates minus 7 widgets they can get a whole buch of buses and it would mean more buses for all your friends to drive and a slight pay raise.......

Company B union sector gets mad and says hey you guys can only drive 37 new buses and all the buses over 37 will be driven by Company b drivers..... AND ON AND ON

I guess my point is ALPA pilot groups have such a great disparity amoung its members it is hard for one union to represent everyone fairly. Mgt will always whipsaw the groups against each other because of this disparity. I think the long term effect of our career is the top coming way down, the bottom coming up a bit and eventually the pay rage from top to bottom will be a lot narrower.

I think one strong united union would be outstanding but I am not sure if that is possible.

 

[finnjl]

My take on ALPA:

 

[Capi_Cafre']

.........time for us guys at comair and other places to take down the house!

HOLLA!

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Your post, sir, suggests a crewroom education....

Actually, it's a BA in engineering.

Your pilot negotiators work with ALPA lawyers in negotiations. Your suggestion that your NC are ineffective says more about you.

It does? That's like me sitting behind an attorney on a hard IFR appoach coaching him over his shoulder. Good try, but it's not the same.

In this current environement, not paying for that overhead would destroy regional pilots. I guess you don't know what you got till its gone.

I don't see how letting go of a bunch of rich old guys is going to destroy my career any more than keeping them has. The minute you cast an anchor, your boat will move with less resistance.

ALPA National salaries? This again? While you are focused on the lost arguement of ALPA National salaries, your management is dismanteling your career. Where is the issue? Your job/career or Nat'l salaries?

I believe that I'm trying to create a union that will have teeth to fight management. So far all I've heard from national is barking. Your correct that management is a problem. But would you fight a war without any weapons? Right now we are being attacked by our managements, and our union is weaponless because it lacks unity. True unity can't be achieved when the parties involved have conflicting interests.

I think the MCF speaks for itself, don't you? If you switched to a regional airline it would be called a Minor Contingency Fund, if there was even a fund.

I don't remember getting 6 million in contigency funds for our last contract. We received 2 million, which was roughly 1/3 of our total contributions.

A regional union.....more divide and conquer opportunities for management.

No, actually it would be less. With a more centralized union, one that has our absolute interests at heart, we would be less vulnerable to attack. Right now with the conflict of interest that exists within our union, it actually gives managment a tool to whipsaw one against the other. The divided interests within ALPA only provides a leverage point for management.

Nowhere in your misrepresented post do you hold management accountable for your current situation.

That's because this thread was about ALPA, not managment. I complain enough about them on other threads where that is the topic.

Nonetheless, I spport the XJ pilots and thier efforts.

Thanks, we can use all the help we can get.

 

[OPECJet]

I can see that most of you don't realize that management is only half your problem. It begins with the big pigs on Capital Hill and ends with Heywood Jablome sitting in the Kremlin running your airline. There is no way on God's green Earth that any union comprised of only regionals will EVER get the job done with the limited (at best) resources we could provide on our salaries.

Plain and simple. ALPA dropped the ball when they didn't get the first 50 seat replacement jet on mainline property. We're all paying for it now.

What do you think a regionals only unions would have done, and would do? Fight / fought tooth and nail to ensure that anything remotely looking like an RJ ended up on an express property. That sure as he!! ain't what we need....

No skin off my back if you don't agree with me. (Drunken rant off)

 

[Tom Hung]

That link will give anyone who is interested the information they need if they feel like they should no longer have to pay dues or be in a union. Its time for EMPLOYEE RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF CHOICE. These unions use the propoganda of "not once more cent". I say lets not give ONE MORE CENT to ALPA. Remember a majority does have to vote on it. Its all about freedom of choice. The days of the mafia running the show must end now. Good luck to all and lets get the ball rolling. Show them how much they really do need our dues. They only care about the majors time for us guys at comair and other places to take down the house! HOLLA__________________
Let me tell ya bout the chicken grease- Voodoo

Where do i begin?? First of all
I think that if i were in your shoes and noone wanted c0mair either then I wouldnt want to give anymore dues to a sinking ship or as you would understand it..."this bitch is outty...." but if you want to make a point then its time to sound like carlton, or someone with half a brain... buddy. Noone wants to hear that BS. If i wanted to listen to that trash..Id turn on MTV!
2nd of all..if it doesnt work out are you gonna bust a cap in there ass?? do you talk that ghetto garbage when you fly or push buttons?? How the F*ck do you get through security with all that BLLING!!! You must have captains calling in sick when they see that have to fly with you. The ship is sinking and maybe you should get out while you still can if you dont like it. but face the reality BRO, your lucky if you have a group that represents you and your long term interest. If the company founders or " gets 187d" then take it upon yourself to annie up and go with the flow like the rest of us and dont try to change something that was in place when you signed on the bottom line. But dont hate the player hate the game homie...you homo
do us all favor and shut the mizzle fo shizzle...that means shut the f*ck up!

 

[atrdriver]

D'Angelo will be the first one to sue ALPA when he loses his medical and they won't help him. Or when he doesn't carpet dance fast enough and gets fired and they won't help him. What an idiot.

 

[Holy Shiite]

HOLLA!

Make no mistake.. D'agelhoe is no Comair Pilot. He is most likely a scumbag
working for the above "management" company. Way to go JT!!! HS

 

[81Horse]

D'Angelo will be the first one to sue ALPA when he loses his medical and they won't help him. Or when he doesn't carpet dance fast enough and gets fired and they won't help him. What an idiot.

The irony is that ALPA will have to represent him anyway -- DFR. Plus, you have to make management fly the contract whether your problem child is a member in good standing or not.

 

[D'Angelo]

[quote.Where do i begin?? First of all
I think that if i were in your shoes and noone wanted c0mair either then I wouldnt want to give anymore dues to a sinking ship or as you would understand it..."this bitch is outty...." but if you want to make a point then its time to sound like carlton, or someone with half a brain... buddy. Noone wants to hear that BS. If i wanted to listen to that trash..Id turn on MTV!
2nd of all..if it doesnt work out are you gonna bust a cap in there ass?? do you talk that ghetto garbage when you fly or push buttons?? How the F*ck do you get through security with all that BLLING!!! You must have captains calling in sick when they see that have to fly with you. The ship is sinking and maybe you should get out while you still can if you dont like it. but face the reality BRO, your lucky if you have a group that represents you and your long term interest. If the company founders or " gets 187d" then take it upon yourself to annie up and go with the flow like the rest of us and dont try to change something that was in place when you signed on the bottom line. But dont hate the player hate the game homie...you homo
do us all favor and shut the mizzle fo shizzle...that means shut the f*ck up![/quote]

Hey man you read the thread anyway. There must have been some deep down intrest in how to get rid of the union. If you really didn't want to see it then its simple, don't click on the subject. The subject clearly states what the topic is about. If it doesn't work out I won't injure anybody. Thats unlike ALPA whos members have acted in mafia like ways. See we are talking about freedom of choice here. I don't see why you can't get it through your skulls. If your that worried about people learning their rights or going to fordharrison then maybe more is wrong with your precious ALPO then you think. Your the one using all that slang not me my friend. If all is well in ALPA then why are you worried about people having legitimate information to what the law provides for? If enough people want it they have the right to start a petition drive and tell ALPA to shove it. If enough people start these drives it will certainly wake them up over there in D.C. If enough people vote to throw them off then so be it. Its funny how many people get so angry when im just educating people how to get rid of their union. Also I am educating them on lawyers that can help end forced unionism. If your so confident then why all the anger. There have been a fairly large number of thread views so far. Im assuming more than just a few people are intrested in this process. Know your rights both ways under the RLA.

 

[AviatorTx]

The nice thing about this... In order for it to go to the next step, D'Angelo is going to have to get out into the crewrooms and start posting flyers, as well as publicly defending his position.

It is really easy to start throwing rocks behind an anonymous website. Sooner or later though, it will have to be taken to the next step. If not, this thread and it's associated interest, will die like all others.

D'Angelo, be specific now. Exactly what is your agenda?

Do you want do decertify and have a non-union operation, or would you just like to change unions? Where are you going with this. You keep mentioning freedom of choice. What choice do you want?

If you are trying to say that airline pilots as a whole do not need to have a union, then I will be convinced that you are Management.

 

[atrdriver]

The irony is that ALPA will have to represent him anyway -- DFR. Plus, you have to make management fly the contract whether your problem child is a member in good standing or not.

They won't have to represent him if he has a medical problem or something with the FAA. And I'll feel SOOOOOO bad for him.

 

[Holy Shiite]

Cmon guys... this loser is not a pilot. Do a search on his posts and threads and it will be very clear what his agenda is. He signs on to this board in January and has well over 100 posts all bashing CMR/ASA. Now he finds it necessary to post about decertifying ALPA after being on this board all of 2 months?

We gotcha covered like a jimmy hat D'angelhoe. Does your royal "homeyness" understand that? You go crawl back under that rock now scumbag. HS

 

[D'Angelo]

Cmon guys... this loser is not a pilot. Do a search on his posts and threads and it will be very clear what his agenda is. He signs on to this board in January and has well over 100 posts all bashing CMR/ASA. Now he finds it necessary to post about decertifying ALPA after being on this board all of 2 months?

We gotcha covered like a jimmy hat D'angelhoe. Does your royal "homeyness" understand that? You go crawl back under that rock now scumbag. HS

Believe what you will but I am active and flying the line as we speak. You are just afraid to believe that not everyone drinks the kool-aid. Again answer my question how is it bashing my own pilots when I am trying to show them how to get out of the clutches of ALPA? The difference here is if they don't want to im not gonna break their knee caps like ALPA would suggest if someone doesn't vote their way. I absolutely bash ASA pilots because of their high horse position. Time to knock them down a few notches. I absolutely picked up open time and will continue to do so. Its not bashing anyone its exercising my rights under the contract. It says I have the right to be paid 1.5 for open time I pick up. It has absolutely no clause about not picking it up while people are on furlough. Just exercising my rights and disagreeing with people not bashing. Im sorry if you are so insecure about your union that you have to worry just because someone posts legitimate and legal information on how to oust them. Thats your problem not mine. See ya on the line.

 

[D'Angelo]

The nice thing about this... In order for it to go to the next step, D'Angelo is going to have to get out into the crewrooms and start posting flyers, as well as publicly defending his position.

It is really easy to start throwing rocks behind an anonymous website. Sooner or later though, it will have to be taken to the next step. If not, this thread and it's associated interest, will die like all others.

D'Angelo, be specific now. Exactly what is your agenda?

Do you want do decertify and have a non-union operation, or would you just like to change unions? Where are you going with this. You keep mentioning freedom of choice. What choice do you want?

If you are trying to say that airline pilots as a whole do not need to have a union, then I will be convinced that you are Management.

When the time is right I will be happy to "take my message to the streets" just like they did in ALPOs propoganda magazine.. My agenda is this. ALPA has absolutely failed and deserve to be ousted. I would like to send them a wakeup call by starting the decertification process. This will send a clear message that regional pilots are not second class citizens and without our dues its a huge loss for them. I would have no problem giving the non-union situation a whirl as well if the union was ever voted off. Perhaps if instead of being hostile toward management we try to work together for the future perhaps a step in the right direction can be taken. Instead of butting heads its best to work together, come up with a solution, and thats that. I would be willing to give ALPA another chance however NO MORE STRIKES. Thats right NO MORE STRIKES. I would prefer to see arbitration, you take the average payscales, workrules and you hammer out a deal thats fair. I refuse to be a sacrificial lamb ever again. The double standard is just teeming all over at ALPA. They let MESA get away with that crap contract now they expect everyone else that is faced with a paycut to instead STRIKE and SACRIFICE their careers. All of this so MESA can get the flying. I DONT THINK SO. NOT ON MY TIME, NOT ON MY DIME. NOT ONE MORE CENT FOR ALPA.

 

[737 Pylt]

When the time is right I will be happy to "take my message to the streets" just like they did in ALPOs propoganda magazine.. My agenda is this. ALPA has absolutely failed and deserve to be ousted. I would like to send them a wakeup call by starting the decertification process. This will send a clear message that regional pilots are not second class citizens and without our dues its a huge loss for them.

Well stated, but in order to do that, you're going to have to leave the world of anonominity (sp) and come out from behind your computer.

I would have no problem giving the non-union situation a whirl as well if the union was ever voted off. Perhaps if instead of being hostile toward management we try to work together for the future perhaps a step in the right direction can be taken. Instead of butting heads its best to work together, come up with a solution, and thats that.

And you were doing so well up until that point. CMR managment gives less of a rats too too about you than ALPA does, I guarentee you that. Just for the record, if you were to get into a violation situation, who are you going to have protect you, management??

I would be willing to give ALPA another chance however NO MORE STRIKES. Thats right NO MORE STRIKES. I would prefer to see arbitration, you take the average payscales, workrules and you hammer out a deal thats fair. I refuse to be a sacrificial lamb ever again. The double standard is just teeming all over at ALPA.

OK, I'm not even bothering with you. I stopped reading after the stuff I deleted. Self help is a GREAT tool in labor negotiations, any more, its the only tool....Either you are some management puke trolling aviation boards, or just too stupid to rationalize with!?
737

 

[uba757]

"OK, I'm not even bothering with you. I stopped reading after the stuff I deleted. Self help is a GREAT tool in labor negotiations, any more, its the only tool....Either you are some management puke trolling aviation boards, or just too stupid to rationalize with!?"


WOW PYLT AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING, THE SKY MUST BE FALLING. MY BAD I'M TAKING OFF. LOL UBA757