How senior is SLC for ASA?

[General Lee]

It will probably be an uphill fight. I think that the time to decide that you wanted RJs at mainline was 20 years ago. Do you think that DAL pilots would be willing to work for a regional pay scale?

Absolutely. How big are RJs in your book? A 79 seater is really a 90 seater with a first class, and it is as long as an MD80 almost. And, the judge is asking the same questions for us to the Delta lawyers. If we get them, they will pay more than your 70 seaters. Something has to replace the 737-200s, and if it is 200 79 seaters, then we would like them. That makes sense, right? Anyone can get a 100 seat pay rate, but then never see the 100 seaters. We want to see the new planes, and we still have 475 furloughs on the street. You want them to come back too, right? Maybe you want them to come back to YOUR right seat while you are in the left.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bluto]

General, I think everyone hopes those airplanes go to Delta. I know I do. The more major jobs there are, the better it is for everyone.

 

[rjcap]

Absolutely. How big are RJs in your book? A 79 seater is really a 90 seater with a first class, and it is as long as an MD80 almost.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Whether its configured at 79 or 90 seats its a stretch CRJ 200.

General, the CRJ 900 is an RJ with the same cramped cockpit as a CRJ 200. If you get CRJ 900's you will have come full circle back to being regional pilots at regional pay rates.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[General Lee]

Whether its configured at 79 or 90 seats its a stretch CRJ 200.

General, the CRJ 900 is an RJ with the same cramped cockpit as a CRJ 200. If you get CRJ 900's you will have come full circle back to being regional pilots at regional pay rates.

Be careful what you wish for.

Well, I am sure we would accept those rather than furlough more. All they said is 78 or 79 seaters, and the EMB 175 carries that many, and the E190 is the next step up. You and I both know that the E175 and up are really nice (and so is the E170). I would fly those. And, I would fly left seat in the CRJ 705 if it were the only Captain position out there. (heck, I would fly a mainline CRJ705 in the right seat too, although they would have to furlough a bunch for that to happen) That is the way it goes, and I know our MEC is in favor of that---anything more than 70 seats. A lot of this is to bring back the remaining furloughs, and that is a good thing all around. Those rates will be higher than the 70 seat rates regardless.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

"Do you think that DAL pilots would be willing to work for a regional pay scale?"

I'll ask the next furloughed United guy in the right seat of the RJ I fly with.
The larger iterations should remain at mainline.

 

[Erlanger]

There are two 705s sitting in the Skywest Tucson hangar. If you don't believe me check it out for yourself.

 

[Mookie]

Genral,

When is your Md-88 upgrade class? Shouldn't you be studdying for that yet?

Mookie

ERlanger,

Whose 705's are those in Tuscon. my fo the other day told me about those, but didn't know if they were ours or not.

 

[SPDBRD747400]

There are two 705s sitting in the Skywest Tucson hangar. If you don't believe me check it out for yourself.

That means nothing, they could be there for someone else like Air Canada Jazz.

 

[blueridge71]

Absolutely. How big are RJs in your book? A 79 seater is really a 90 seater with a first class, and it is as long as an MD80 almost. And, the judge is asking the same questions for us to the Delta lawyers. If we get them, they will pay more than your 70 seaters. Something has to replace the 737-200s, and if it is 200 79 seaters, then we would like them. That makes sense, right? Anyone can get a 100 seat pay rate, but then never see the 100 seaters. We want to see the new planes, and we still have 475 furloughs on the street. You want them to come back too, right? Maybe you want them to come back to YOUR right seat while you are in the left.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

These days RJ is a very loose term. A "regional jet" can fly from the east coast to Kansas or Colorado, making the "region" basically North America. As to seats, the Embraer 190 seats 98 and that is still considered a regional jet. Numerous carriers are flying 70 seat RJs.

My point was this. According to airlinepilotcentral.com, a 3 year DAL FO on the MD80 or 737 makes around $90 per hour. Contrast that to the approximately $40 per hour that a CRJ 700 FO makes at ASA. Add to the mix that the mainline pilot gets a pension, more days off, shorter work days and you get a lopsided cost advantage for the regional side. Is that good? Heck no, but it's reality.

The regional genie is out of the bottle and it will be extremely hard to put it back in, especially with the parent company in bankruptcy. IMHO the time to fight this fight was 20 years ago when RJs first started appearing, but we can't turn back the clock.

I feel for your furloughed pilots, since I am also a furloughee. However, I know of very few mainline furloughees who chose to go back to the regionals. Most choose to go into outside businesses instead. If a furloughee doesn't want to take a 50% paycut, why would someone want to take that big a cut to keep working? Some would, but my guess is that more would not.

I hope that you are correct because that will mean good times ahead for both of us. If the mainline is healthy, then the regionals will have plenty of flying and regional pilots will have plenty of chances to upgrade. However, I would be surprised to see DALPA take anything close to what regional pilots would find attractive.

 

[Bluto]

Actually the EMB-170/190 family was carefully not marketed as an "RJ". I think Embraer saw the writing on the wall in terms of customer dissatisfaction and economic short-falls of the RJ and avoided that moniker, though many media sources use that term in error when referencing these aircraft.

 

[Plug]

Are you sure about SkyWest or ASA flying the CRJ-705s or -900s for Delta? Are you sure about that? The judge questioned the Delta lawyer about that last Wednesday. Nobody knows yet who will get what. We are trying to get the 79 seaters too. It will be interesting indeed....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Skywest did convert 22 CRJ200 orders they came with ASA to 70 seaters. They have mentioned at roadshows about getting the CRJ705 or CRJ900 and having first class so as to comply with scope. They meet all requirements of your agreement, what the judge does may change things, I am simply going by what my company has told me.

 

[General Lee]

Skywest did convert 22 CRJ200 orders they came with ASA to 70 seaters. They have mentioned at roadshows about getting the CRJ705 or CRJ900 and having first class so as to comply with scope. They meet all requirements of your agreement, what the judge does may change things, I am simply going by what my company has told me.

That is incorrect. Currently we have scope for a limited number of 70 seaters for only ASA and Comair (I don't know how the sale of ASA will affect that with respect to SkyWest), and nothing over 70 seats TOTAL. A CRJ-705 has more than that (79?), and that would not apply unless changed. The company wants more, but the judge and union are questioning that. The judge asked the Delta attorney why the mainline guys couldn't fly the 79 seaters. He said the benefits package made it too cost competitive, to which the judge said that Delta would not get the scope for "free." Delta has been asking for $335 million PLUS free unlimited scope, and the judge questioned that and told the Delta lawyer to come up with a quantitative $$ amount, or what it would be worth to the company---and take that off of the $335M. The Delta attorney did not like that. It will be interesting to see what happens coming up here. Hopefully an agreement will be worked out, but I don't see Dalpa caving on the 79 seaters yet...We have furloughed pilots that might want to fly that 79 seater from the LEFT seat. We shall see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Plug]

That is incorrect. Currently we have scope for a limited number of 70 seaters for only ASA and Comair (I don't know how the sale of ASA will affect that with respect to SkyWest), and nothing over 70 seats TOTAL. A CRJ-705 has more than that (79?), and that would not apply unless changed. The company wants more, but the judge and union are questioning that. The judge asked the Delta attorney why the mainline guys couldn't fly the 79 seaters. He said the benefits package made it too cost competitive, to which the judge said that Delta would not get the scope for "free." Delta has been asking for $335 million PLUS free unlimited scope, and the judge questioned that and told the Delta lawyer to come up with a quantitative $$ amount, or what it would be worth to the company---and take that off of the $335 flightinfo. The Delta attorney did not like that. It will be interesting to see what happens coming up here. Hopefully an agreement will be worked out, but I don't see Dalpa caving on the 79 seaters yet...We have furloughed pilots that might want to fly that 79 seater from the LEFT seat. We shall see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

ASA and CMR have not yet reached the 70 seat limit. The CRJ705 is a CRJ900 with 76 seats. The seat amount can vary as to what the customer wants. You can make a CRJ705 very comfortable with just 70 seats (first, and coach) and meet all the scope requirements. I agree that any more seats would be a violation. Our management has told us this, and they have told us that they are aggressively pursueing an additional code share agreement. That new agreement may permit aircraft with more than 70 seats.

 

[General Lee]

General,

ASA and CMR have not yet reached the 70 seat limit. The CRJ705 is a CRJ900 with 76 seats. The seat amount can vary as to what the customer wants. You can make a CRJ705 very comfortable with just 70 seats (first, and coach) and meet all the scope requirements. I agree that any more seats would be a violation. Our management has told us this, and they have told us that they are aggressively pursueing an additional code share agreement. That new agreement may permit aircraft with more than 70 seats.

Incorrect. Our scope agreement looks at the airplane size too, and if the plane could carry more seats, then it is not included. I guess we could give ASA 757s with 70 seats also, right? Wrong. The CRJ-705 was DESIGNED to carry more than 70. Your United CR7s have first class, but that plane was designed for 70 seats. So, your UA CR7s have 56 or so seats, including the first class section. That would be permitted under our clause, but not the CRJ-705. The CRJ-705 was created by Canadair to try to get around scope clauses. It has the body of a CR9, but less seats.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bluto]

Alright, well General, we'll see what happens. Honestly, I hope you are right, but from the way scope has been pretty much demolished at most bankrupt legacy carriers over the past few years, it'll be tough to find a judge sympathetic to your plight. The industry-wide trend appears to be longer international routes for you mainliners while shrinking the narrow-body fleets and more growth at the regional level for these 70-100 seat airplanes. I hope it turns out differently, but based on recent trends, I'd be very surprised to see DAL's current scope survive bankruptcy.

 

[Plug]

Incorrect. Our scope agreement looks at the airplane size too, and if the plane could carry more seats, then it is not included. I guess we could give ASA 757s with 70 seats also, right? Wrong. The CRJ-705 was DESIGNED to carry more than 70. Your United CR7s have first class, but that plane was designed for 70 seats. So, your UA CR7s have 56 or so seats, including the first class section. That would be permitted under our clause, but not the CRJ-705. The CRJ-705 was created by Canadair to try to get around scope clauses. It has the body of a CR9, but less seats.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I thought there was just weight and seat limits. If you are correct then one of your former pilots now our DO (ASA by the way) is planning on that provision changing.

 

[gOOfly]

There are two 705s sitting in the Skywest Tucson hangar. If you don't believe me check it out for yourself.

Ok N705SK I'm aware of, what's the other 705?

 

[General Lee]

I thought there was just weight and seat limits. If you are correct then one of your former pilots now our DO (ASA by the way) is planning on that provision changing.

That will be interesting because the judge already is hounding Delta about the 79 seat jets and why they won't allow Delta pilots to fly them. When the Delta lawyer gave the explanation that it was to stregthen the company as a whole, she yelled at him "I know what you want to do." She stated there would have to be a dollar amount $$ attached to scope, and the Delta lawyer didn't have an answer. She told him to figure it out. We'll see what happens. Dalpa has a standing offer to fly the 79 seaters NOW. Maybe we can get a deal where SkyWest flies them but our guys are in the left seat. (like USAir and Mesa and PSA) That would be interesting, and Jerry in SGU might go for it---no union to object.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Puck Mugger]

Maybe we can get a deal where SkyWest flies them but our guys are in the left seat. (like USAir and Mesa and PSA) That would be interesting, and Jerry in SGU might go for it---no union to object.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I guess that falls under the old "My airline is broken, so I''ll take yours." syndrome.

You guys are all the same. If you wanted to fly for SkyWest than you should have applied to SkyWest. They gambled, they lost, tough $hit. Wait for the recall now or go to the bottom of the list.

 

[General Lee]

I guess that falls under the old "My airline is broken, so I''ll take yours." syndrome.

You guys are all the same. If you wanted to fly for SkyWest than you should have applied to SkyWest. They gambled, they lost, tough $hit. Wait for the recall now or go to the bottom of the list.

Thanks Puck. I am not furloughed, but my example may be the only way Jerry gets to fly them for Delta. This will all have to be worked out, but I know Dalpa aint just giving in on 79 seat scope. Nope. Maybe you guys can trade them in for a couple of 70 seaters....

Bye Bye--General Lee