How not to conduct a SLI after a merger

[waveflyer]

As the threads move into double digit pages after a day- and both sides arguing whether they won or will win eventually -

for the rest of us- who could all be wrapped up in a M&A/SLI situation at anytime-

is anyone confused that there will be no winners in the USAir debacle?

 

[Crzipilot]

Don't think it will be classified as a "winner" as both sides have lost something. Eventually there will be a final list, and I'm sure that will be tested by the courts, or attempted (if the west has the money). Then it will be final, or redone again.

That's the only thing that's for sure. Though read the decision, it hints at alot. Such as the idea that the NIC is definitely an obstacle for the union to get a contract voted in, and the west guys aren't damaged until we actually see what is put in place.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

But even after all that's gone on I still have the same basic question. How do both sides agree to binding arbitration and then choose not to follow said outcome?



SLC

 

[Pilot Knob]

Buyers remorse, or lying. Take your pick.

 

[ualdriver]

Anyone have a link to the decision?

 

[eaglesview]

I see a bunch of AWA guys who in my opinion won the arbitration via the nic. (yes in my opinion, which counts for nothing the nic favored the west) Afterwards you had some very sore winners showing poor charactor on the west side. Now the opposite is true. This verdict obviously favors the East and they are on here as very poor winners.

Two hard headed pilot groups that think they either saved the otherside, brought all the good flying to the merger, This side was going out of business, that side is just a large regional.........it goes on and on.

The good news is they have provided a blueprint on how not to handle a SLI.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well, as the courts have mentioned. That binding arbitration was a internal ALPA policy. Which the way that policy was structured with the T/A agreement, a CBA wouldn't be ratified for YEARS. The courts seem to agree, that, the internal process can be vacated, as long as the secondary route still treats east and west fairly.

Definition of fair???? That it falls within a WIDE Range of Reasonableness. I would imagine that if any SLI follows the new federal law, it would be considered reasonable?

 

[waveflyer]

how to handle an SLI-
Make your case- advocate it- lay aside the stupid hormonal emotion and ego- let it go to a neutral- live with the result- and get to the real work of attaining a good contract and getting everyone on the same page so the business makes money-

there are guys on the east and west so wrapped up in this that it has caused divorces and health issues-.... Already- much less what it does to you over time.

seriously not worth it-

 

[Superbird]

Any list should be based on who each pilot could expect to happen at the time of the merger. At USAir, pilots were furloughed and things looked grim. At AWA, pilots were being hired and airplanes were being purchased. How a USAir pilot could expect anything more than being employed, let alone called back in their situation is beyond me.

Trouble is that they both agreed to a process and ALPA failed them both. Hear that? ALPA failed. Your airline could be next. Do you want them deciding your fate? In the meantime, the court rules that the East pilots can negotiatie a contract, however they need to be careful to protect the West pilots. Do you trust Usapas intentions?

 

[eaglesview]

Any list should be based on who each pilot could expect to happen at the time of the merger. At USAir, pilots were furloughed and things looked grim. At AWA, pilots were being hired and airplanes were being purchased. How a USAir pilot could expect anything more than being employed, let alone called back in their situation is beyond me.

This is the challenge created with mergers. Somehow we got to the point where we take a snapshot at some appointed time and go on the assumption that the airlines involved will continue their current path barring the said merger. This thought process is flawed. Look at CO in the early 90's, they sucked. Look at them now. Look at USAir in the 80's Look at them now.

USAir/AWA pilots got burned by this. AWA thinks they saved USAir.. Really if so why didn't Parker let them go out of business and pick up the pieces. USAir seems to feel they got bought by shrinking airline with no future and no real presence outside of PHX. The closing of LAS didn't help.

I have real heartburn with the subjective ways of figuring a SLI. (relative seniority, career expectations ect.) Now that UAL is involved in the process I am keeping my mouth closed a little more as cooler heads must prevail. Hopefully there will be over 10,000 pissed off pilots when it's done then we know it was done right.

 

[ultrarunner]

But even after all that's gone on I still have the same basic question. How do both sides agree to binding arbitration and then choose not to follow said outcome?

SLC

Both sides didn't to choose not to follow NIC and negotiate a CBA. The east absolved ALPA and created USAPA in a specific attempt to vacate the NIC award.

It was NOT mutual.

Got it?

 

[Scrapdog]

This is the challenge created with mergers. Somehow we got to the point where we take a snapshot at some appointed time and go on the assumption that the airlines involved will continue their current path barring the said merger. This thought process is flawed. Look at CO in the early 90's, they sucked. Look at them now. Look at USAir in the 80's Look at them now.

USAir/AWA pilots got burned by this. AWA thinks they saved USAir.. Really if so why didn't Parker let them go out of business and pick up the pieces. USAir seems to feel they got bought by shrinking airline with no future and no real presence outside of PHX. The closing of LAS didn't help.

I have real heartburn with the subjective ways of figuring a SLI. (relative seniority, career expectations ect.) Now that UAL is involved in the process I am keeping my mouth closed a little more as cooler heads must prevail. Hopefully there will be over 10,000 pissed off pilots when it's done then we know it was done right.

Valid point. To piggyback, use UAL as an example. Look at UAL in 2000. They rocked. Look at them now....well, you get the point.

 

[eaglesview]

Valid point. To piggyback, use UAL as an example. Look at UAL in 2000. They rocked. Look at them now....well, you get the point.

Absolutley true, though for us I would say the late 90's were the best times. Things were unravelling by 2000. By 2005 we were in the toilet. We seem to be starting to see light at the end of the tunnel now. All of this cycling, which every airline does makes the snapshot a bit unrealistic.

 

[Scrapdog]

Absolutley true, though for us I would say the late 90's were the best times. Things were unravelling by 2000. By 2005 we were in the toilet. We seem to be starting to see light at the end of the tunnel now. All of this cycling, which every airline does makes the snapshot a bit unrealistic.

I'd say that's an understatement. You are beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel - for one very apparent reason...merging with CAL. You get to sh*tcan your management and get ours (not that ours is that much better in a lot of areas but obviously 10 fold better than the UAL leadership clown act). Your airplanes are extremely outdated, you have no confirmed deliveries until well into the 2015 timeframe, and alot of your big iron is non-etops with smaller motors.

It is what it is.

 

[Scrapdog]

Absolutley true, though for us I would say the late 90's were the best times. Things were unravelling by 2000. By 2005 we were in the toilet. We seem to be starting to see light at the end of the tunnel now. All of this cycling, which every airline does makes the snapshot a bit unrealistic.

I disagree. The present time, not the past, is when all of this is going down. And right now, CAL is a much healthier company - in multitudes of ways. From a much younger pilot group with just over 100 furloughs on the street (there really should be none - but that's for a different discussion), confirmed airplanes coming to the company as we speak with a much younger and more fuel effecient fleet overall, and a better customer service model that isn't even on the same playing field with UAL.

It's like a checkride - you can be ace of the base - but when you fly your checkride you get one shot, and it's the PRESENT DAY. You either perform or you don't...and you get your score that reflects your current day performance. You don't go to the check pilot (or SEFE in the military) and say "well, hey...I really did fly well the past 6 months, I promise...just go easy on me today." It doesn't work that way, sorry.

 

[eaglesview]

That's fine your entitled to your opinion. I am not making a claim or a statement for our (assuming you are CO.) merger. I am speaking more in generalized terms. My first post already gave CO credit for making a nice recovery from the tarnished image they had in the early 90's.

Niether you or I will make the decision in the end. Stay tuned, stay calm.

 

[Scrapdog]

That's fine your entitled to your opinion. I am not making a claim or a statement for our (assuming you are CO.) merger. I am speaking more in generalized terms. My first post already gave CO credit for making a nice recovery from the tarnished image they had in the early 90's.

Niether you or I will make the decision in the end. Stay tuned, stay calm.

Again, I disagree. It's one thing to say "hey, they had issues" or "they struggled"...yeah, I get it there. To say blatantly "hey, they sucked" is pretty derogatory and biased.

Do I really care - no...I wasn't anywhere close to being in the airlines in the 90's. I was just hoping not to get yelled at as a cadet at the zoo. But I call it like I see it - your post was blatantly negative and derogatory toward CAL. Looks like shoe's on the other foot now huh? Karma is a b*tch.

 

[eaglesview]

I have no issue with Continental. They are a bunch of guys struggling to make a living like the rest of us. Again you are welcome to disagree. The only one bringing any karma is you. See you on the line soon enough.

PS the threads not about CO or UAL it is about the mistakes made in coming up with a SLI. Again...Stay tuned stay calm.

 

[waveflyer]

Eagle- I like that

Stay tuned. Stay calm-

Advocate your position- passionately even- but be absolutely committed to a result from the process and live with it like men. Lose-Lose scenarios have to be avoided- and emotion is teenager dumb.

 

[reepicheep]

The east are clear winners. The list is already DOH since they've never integrated. Instead of liquidation it's been business as usual for going on 5 years now. Even if the co. ultimately upholds NIC there's no chance of a contract and integration for years; meanwhile attrition kicks in, upgrades resume and the east starts recalling & hiring while PHX & the west go the way of PSA.