How Many Will NWA Furlough?

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

The last update says that the DAL/NWA team is negotiating, from a joint position, directly with management in marathon sessions, and will continue to do so until an agreement is reached.

Reported progress is "good".

Nu

 

[AirportBum]

I agree, and would like to see the Compass guys welcomed onto the list (with the 76 flying back at mainline).

However, it seems like this would create a problem with all the OTHER 76 seat flying that's going on (Mesaba, Comair, Skywest, ASA?) How would we bring the 76 seat scope back without creating a huge problem there. Doesn't seem like we can say "ok, 175's are mainline, but the crj 900 will still be outsourced." It would be nice, but I don't see mgmt agreeing to this.

Hopefully we'll get some good news next week.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I agree, and would like to see the Compass guys welcomed onto the list (with the 76 flying back at mainline).

However, it seems like this would create a problem with all the OTHER 76 seat flying that's going on (Mesaba, Comair, Skywest, ASA?) How would we bring the 76 seat scope back without creating a huge problem there. Doesn't seem like we can say "ok, 175's are mainline, but the crj 900 will still be outsourced." It would be nice, but I don't see mgmt agreeing to this.

Hopefully we'll get some good news next week.

I don't see it happening either unfortunately. Although it isn't fair this is exactly the case at Air Canada/AC Jazz.

 

[General Lee]

I don't see it happening either unfortunately. Although it isn't fair this is exactly the case at Air Canada/AC Jazz.

You are absolutely correct. Air Canada flies E175s and E190s at Mainline, and Jazz flies CR9s. Maybe negotiating all current Compass and any new E175s for mainline could work. I doubt we could do anything about the current Shuttle America E170s/E175s though. It would be a good start.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ThisistheDream]

The October APA that came out for NWA today has alot of backwards displacements!!!!!!!! hopefully this is the worst of the displacements

 

[Beetle007]

How do you have backwards displacements without furloughs?

 

[Cessna340]

I don't mean to fuel the fire, but another board post today states that the DAL chief pilot just confirmed DAL will need to hire this fall the the new 777s.

 

[NuGuy]

How do you have backwards displacements without furloughs?

Heyas,

Yea, it can happen. The monthly maxes have been set very high for the last year or so. They can lower the maxes down to around 75/mo, and that will absorb a lot of bodies.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

The October APA that came out for NWA today has alot of backwards displacements!!!!!!!! hopefully this is the worst of the displacements

This should be the worst of it because this is for the Fall when all the reductions will take place. The big cut back is in the fall and we all knew that was coming. While not good it was expected considering we are parking some aircraft.

 

[JohnDoe]

Yea, it can happen. The monthly maxes have been set very high for the last year or so. They can lower the maxes down to around 75/mo, and that will absorb a lot of bodies.
Nu

I'll believe that one when I see it. This is the same group that allowed flex-up to happen three (3) times while pilots were on furlough. Despite the fact it was expressly prohibited by the contract at that time. LOA it away........

Take more "paycuts" through lower monthly maxes??......Doubt it.

After seeing this APA today (roughly 99 displacements) I think I am going to stick with my original estimate. What the heck are they going to do with all of those displaced bodies to 747 SO in ANC?? Answer: nothing. We still have the Nov and Dec APA's to go. I would bet a month's pay there will be another fleet reduction announcement come Sept or so to finish off the bulk of the -9's.

I'd ask what the number to that truckdriver school is but I don't think any of them are hiring either.....

 

[Superpilot92]

The funny thing is scheduling told me today that they are very short staffed! As far as the APA goes there were also awards on it so it wasnt all bad. Maybe some of the over 60 guys will get displaced and say screw it and punch out

 

[jester757]

I doubt any old farts will leave unitl they see if there will be any equity stake is given to the NWA guys.

DAL just announed another 3% cut in domestic over previous numbers. Did NWA do the same thing??

 

[Superpilot92]

I doubt any old farts will leave unitl they see if there will be any equity stake is given to the NWA guys.

DAL just announed another 3% cut in domestic over previous numbers. Did NWA do the same thing??

Hopefully they will punch out once they get the equity or buyout. Or they will FLY TILL THEY DIE! NWA announced something like 5-6 more aircraft "parkings" but this time it was A320s and 757s which i think is just a plan on getting cheaper lease rates. Another unusual thing about the latest NWA announcement was to go down to 61 dc9s instead of the 58 dc9s that was the planned number earlier this year. Why keep 3 more DC9's unless maybe thats DALs idea in place of RJ's? I guess we'll see.

 

[FDJ2]

They can lower the maxes down to around 75/mo, and that will absorb a lot of bodies.

Nu

Is that in your current PWA, or is that something you would negotiate with management?

 

[DashTrash400]

I've been hearing an awful lot of chatter about bringing Compass flying/pilots into mainline on the various boards, but almost all of it is of the "yeah that'd be a good idea, hope it happens" variety. Is there anything to indicate that this issue is even on the radar for union leadership? Have line pilots been making their wishes on this issue known?

 

[DTW320]

This should be the worst of it because this is for the Fall when all the reductions will take place. The big cut back is in the fall and we all knew that was coming. While not good it was expected considering we are parking some aircraft.

Also, "displacements" at NWA is a little different than other places. Remember, Blockholder and Reserve are 2 separate bid categories at NWA. For example, 68 of the "displacements"(out of 211 total "displacements") on the October APA that just came out are simply displacements from Blockholder to Reserve on the same aircraft in the same base. Another 44 were same aircraft/same seat displaced to a different base. 99 were true displacements from one aircraft and/or seat to another.

 

[nwaredtail]

I've been hearing an awful lot of chatter about bringing Compass flying/pilots into mainline on the various boards, but almost all of it is of the "yeah that'd be a good idea, hope it happens" variety. Is there anything to indicate that this issue is even on the radar for union leadership? Have line pilots been making their wishes on this issue known?

No and no

 

[DashTrash400]

No and no

That's the feeling I get but I'm a born pessimist and I've gathered from your other posts that you're a fellow member of the glass-half-empty club.

Are you fairly involved in the union or is your answer based on something else?

 

[~~~^~~~]

With the current negotiating environment, I would guess that DAL's staffing formulas will change, thus requiring less training expense, upgrades, etc. 2-4 more pilots per aircraft is a bit rich compared to NWA.

Could the staffing model difference have any relation to Delta's greater utilization rates on the aircraft in their fleet?

Could be that comparing NWA and DAL would be closer if block hours, RSM's, or some other metric were used other than a ratio of pilots to aircraft hulls.

 

[General Lee]

The October APA that came out for NWA today has alot of backwards displacements!!!!!!!! hopefully this is the worst of the displacements

Can you give some numbers and aircraft types please.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The funny thing is scheduling told me today that they are very short staffed! As far as the APA goes there were also awards on it so it wasnt all bad. Maybe some of the over 60 guys will get displaced and say screw it and punch out

The over age 60 guys that were flying FE on the 742 will probably bid Captain on something big.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Can you give some numbers and aircraft types please.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Don't have time to do any math, but quite a few (10-20) of the equipment displacements seemed to be 757CA to A320CA... which caused a trickle effect. I don't have the APA in front of me and don't have time to pull it up so these ballpark numbers. There was a gain of 30 or so 747SO positions which could be a "clearing house." Only my speculation. Wife's calling...off to the lake.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Could the staffing model difference have any relation to Delta's greater utilization rates on the aircraft in their fleet?

Could be that comparing NWA and DAL would be closer if block hours, RSM's, or some other metric were used other than a ratio of pilots to aircraft hulls.

I understand the average pilot at NWA flys approx 8-10 more hours/month than DAL. Mid 50s vs. mid/upper 40s. I got this second hand, but a good source

Schwanker

 

[NuGuy]

Is that in your current PWA, or is that something you would negotiate with management?

Heyas,

It's in the current PWA. It is a "flexible" cap that allows for exactly this sort of thing.

The company designates the "monthly max" within a window every month (75-86 hours) for EACH category (MSP757CAB, DTW320FOB, etc). Then you have the option when you bid your schedule where in that window (from the max to 12 hours below) you want to fall (min, max, normal or "dont care"). For example, if its a 75 hour month and you bid a min sched, it will try to build you a line around 63 hours.

Reserve categories have slightly different windows, but I've never seen them set at less than the max.

The system was designed to accomodate temporary excesses and shortages without starting the training/displacement waterfall. The problem is that since last summer, staffing has been at the "redline", and monthly maxes for every category have been at the maximum. Ideally, the maxes should be in the middle of the window, to allow for "float" in either direction.

Going from 86 to 75 hours will absorb a lot of bodies, and it's already in the PWA. It's the company's option what they want to do.

Nu

 

[DashTrash400]

Heyas,

It's in the current PWA. It is a "flexible" cap that allows for exactly this sort of thing.

The company designates the "monthly max" within a window every month (75-86 hours) for EACH category (MSP757CAB, DTW320FOB, etc). Then you have the option when you bid your schedule where in that window (from the max to 12 hours below) you want to fall (min, max, normal or "dont care"). For example, if its a 75 hour month and you bid a min sched, it will try to build you a line around 63 hours.

Reserve categories have slightly different windows, but I've never seen them set at less than the max.

The system was designed to accomodate temporary excesses and shortages without starting the training/displacement waterfall. The problem is that since last summer, staffing has been at the "redline", and monthly maxes for every category have been at the maximum. Ideally, the maxes should be in the middle of the window, to allow for "float" in either direction.

Going from 86 to 75 hours will absorb a lot of bodies, and it's already in the PWA. It's the company's option what they want to do.

Nu

Good info Nu, thanks...that helps me understand how NW could absorb these capacity cuts without furloughing (*fingers crossed*). I'd imagine that going to 75 hours will be the company's first option...furloughing just got more expensive for them now that furloughing involves typing them in the E175 and throwing away a Compass newhire with a fresh 175 type.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas DT,

No problem. The company also has a "no availability" option that they roll out every so often.

Basically, it pays a pilot 55 hours to sit at home, with no obligation to the company. I don't know if we'll see that this time around.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

Good info Nu, thanks...that helps me understand how NW could absorb these capacity cuts without furloughing (*fingers crossed*). I'd imagine that going to 75 hours will be the company's first option...furloughing just got more expensive for them now that furloughing involves typing them in the E175 and throwing away a Compass newhire with a fresh 175 type.

That another big reason why a flowthrough agreement is so helpful. Its an incentive to the company not to furlough on a whim. There are significant costs involved with furloughing now and thats good for you and good for me. Hopefully this is the big apa for the year and will set us up for the fall reductions. Now when we get this merger out of the way i am sure everything is going to change again and thats anyone's guess. We shall see.

 

[Fly4hire]

The over age 60 guys that were flying FE on the 742 will probably bid Captain on something big.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Nope. Not one. Had one over 60 FE bid to 744 F/O. Remember there still has to be an opening to bid to, and you must be free of any seat locks. Most of those who bid to S/O post 60 have a 2 year lock unless positions are eliminated and they can bump into what their seniority will hold. Given the large number of junior displacements into the position, the likelihood of that is nil.

 

[filejw]

Heyas DT,

No problem. The company also has a "no availability" option that they roll out every so often.

Basically, it pays a pilot 55 hours to sit at home, with no obligation to the company. I don't know if we'll see that this time around.

Nu

Dam am i hoping for this again.. best deal going except for using FML to get my 1400 sick hrs down to the soon to be new max of 300 hrs.

 

[123]

Heyas,

Yea, it can happen. The monthly maxes have been set very high for the last year or so. They can lower the maxes down to around 75/mo, and that will absorb a lot of bodies.

Nu

Actually, they can only lower the monthly max to 80 hrs per the contract.