How many of you are......

[52Vincent]

over 40 and trying to get your first job flying after accumulating hours from flight instruction? I have a wife and child and not sure I want to work for peanuts in the foreseable future. I have had a few interviews with the regionals, all followed by "thanks, but no thanks letters"(granted, the sim. could have gone better). Could my age be a factor? I have heard from other airline pilots that the regionals would prefer people in their 20 or 30's. I have been thinking that perhaps I should just fly for fun and change careers. I have an opportunity to do that in the next week or two. I can either continue instructing starting again next week (sel only flying) of I may have an opportunity to do something else and make a lot more $$. I was mostly curious to see how many people are over 40 and trying to start out in this crazy industry.

 

[Checks]

depends on which you love more, your family or flying.

 

[b757driver]

I would DEFINITELY do the something else. It will not get any easier down the road if commercial flying is what you wnat to do. Get the good-paying job which will give you security and longevity and then you might even be able to afford to buy your own light aircraft and fly for fun.
You will neither get rich in commercial flying nor have longevity or security. On the other hand, if you like living on the edge and for the moment and your future is not that important, stick with what you have. It's really a no-brainer.
If I had my time all over again with what I know now, I would have done something completely different. This industry is nohing like it once was and probably never will be.
If you don't believe me, ask Kit Darby, he'll be happy to take your money and spin the stories!

 

[skyaddict]

I seriously doubt age is an issue. Are you low on multi-engine time? If so then that would explain things. In any case, right now the airline industry is about the least stable career path one can choose to start on. It cost me my marriage (separated right now) because I was home so rarely, spending exciting overnights in places like my crashpads or exotic ports of call like Evansville, IN and Albany, NY. (Ok Montreal was a great overnight but great overnights are few and far between!)

Right now, recently furloughed, I just started again at a really crappy company that doesn't even give me any pay or benefits during training (not even to travel on them) and will result in food stamp wages until I find a better job. Ah but we should all be grateful to fly a shiny jet. Riiiiiight. I am looking seriously into dumping airline flying as a career but like many, I have no solid backup plan so I'm not ready just yet to make the jump out of the 'asylum.' Flying is still fun for me but one spends around 3 x as much time on the job unpaid, wasting away one's time like a prisoner away from family and friends (yes most crew become friends but it is a friendship bormne of the forced asylum), on useless overnights including weekends and holidays and that gets old real fast.

Best of luck!

 

[orionav8or]

Flying is like crack cocaine; it feels great and once you try it you want to keep doing it.... but nothing good will ever come of it. Do yourself and your family a favor and kick the habit now.

 

[Snakum]

Count me in ... I'm a glutton for punishment.

I've had to stop training so many times I don't wanna even think about it. Family responsibilities ... layoffs ... 9/11 and a 50% paycut .... a hundred things holding me up since logging that first hour ten years ago this Summer. Now I'm 41 years old, finally doing well again in the IT industry, youngest son heading out on his own, no significant other to tie me down, and what is the first thing I wanna do with my new-found wealth? Straight to the airport.

Crack? I've never smoked it ... but I'd imagine that comparison's not far from the truth. Even pro pilots who are doing well right now tell me "Are you crazy?!? Keep the job and just buy a plane! Don't be stupid!" But here I go ... lining up another instructor ... still a starry-eyed kid at 41.

God ... help me. I have wanted to fly for a living since I was old enough to look up in the sky and say "Ahhh paaaane!" Now, do I want to play it safe and make the smart move? Stay in an IT job that I do actually love, working with people I respect and care for, giving 110% every single day and watching the company grow ... or give it all up for a pipe dream that one day I might actually be allowed to sit in the right-hand seat of a King Air and play 'pilot' ... retire penniless with nothing but memories of wonderful places I've visited and awesome people I've known? Life's a toss up anyway. Screw it.

So, if anyone ever wants to give an old fart career changer with a checkered past a chance, I'll eat ramen and like it, and I'll give you 110% every single day without complaint and I'll smile every time the nosewheel lifts off for the first one of the day.

I don't want to be 75 years old, on my deathbed, and kicking myself in the @ss for never at least trying to fulfill my life-long dream.

Yeah ... I'm stupid.

Minh

 

[Kawasumi_Kichou]

... I'll smile every time the nosewheel lifts off for the first one of the day.

The first rotation of the day is easy. It's the 14th rotation of the day that gets a little hard to smile for.

 

[greygoose]

Go fly frieght

 

[52Vincent]

Hey everone thanks for the replies.
I don't have as much multi time as I would like (180).The 200 and 300 hour levels seem to open a few more doors. However there are many other pilots being hired with less multi time than me. At any rate I have no huge desire to fly for the airlines anyway, I would much rather stay in the 91 environment. I know, more difficult yet unless you know someone.
So Snakum is that your final decision ( bad joke, I know) are you leaving the ITT world? Good luck, sounds like it is a good time for you to do it with the offspring leaving and no significant other.
Now a little off the topic, does anyone know anything about a job posted a month or so a go for someone to fly copilot ( I think) in a Conquest and be able to leave near Aspen or Scottsdale. I applied but the person is using a service agency of some kind out of Florida, so I can't get the persons name. The agency will not reveal it.
Anyone else out there over 40 and looking for a flying job?

 

[Kawasumi_Kichou]

I turn 50 tomorrow and am thinking about getting back into the game after a nearly 10-year hiatus. Just 91 or 135 stuff--I'm pretty sure there are no regionals or above in my future.

 

[Snakum]

So Snakum is that your final decision ( bad joke, I know) are you leaving the ITT world?

Yeah ... I think so ... another year or so to finally get all my ratings finished and build some multi.

It's a gamble, not knowing whether or not I'll ever be given a shot. But as I said ... I don't wanna look back and wonder 'what if'. And whomever does finally give me a chance will get an employee who works with the same determination, displays the same motivation and attitude, and shows the same kind of loyalty that I have always shown my current employer. I believe if you want something bad enough, there will always be a way to make it happen.

The harder I work ... the luckier I get.

Minh

 

[ILStoMinimums]

If you get some more multi, I'm sure you'd get on much quicker. However, it is difficult to obtain at times.......good luck.

 

[FlyingSkip]

Well---depending on how a few things work out for me in the next few days/weeks, maybe you can have my spot! I'm hearing the little guy on my shoulder say the same thing that I'm hearing from some of the guys on here....I got out of aviation for 10 years and came back because I missed it so much, and now I'm happy but poor instead of financially comfortable and miserable! I think the "experiment" as my buddy calls it, is about to end because I have to think about college tuitions, retirement benefits and all as I get older. 23 yos can just look at crash-pad wages and the promise of one day flying big shiny jets to keep them going, but as somebody said on here already---the glory days that everybody dreams of reaching are dead and buried! When the best wages in the industry are being paid by freight haulers rather than the majors, there has been a drastic turnaround. Does anybody think that the profit margins will return, that the unions will have the power they once did, that the flow of young talent will stop and take the pressure off the older guys despite their experience? Maybe you do---I don't. There was a thread on here not long ago about the "professional" aspect of piloting---the sad truth is that the public doesn't view pilots anymore as professional, knowledgeable men (and women) with whom they place their trust and their lives---they view us as guys (and gals) who sit behind highly-automated controls and monitor gauges while semiconductors and silicon chips do the lion's share of the work; with that line of thinking goes the high wages that go with "professional" employment. I'm not saying that the perception is correct, all you about to jump down my throat, I'm just saying don't deny it's out there! People see stories about how the military will soon not place fighter/attack jocks in harm's way, but instead sit a guy behind a control panel in a van and let him fly a remote-control aircraft to do the dirty work---you don't think that maybe they think the airlines should do that as well, and if not now maybe they shouldn't someday....

It's a simple rule of economics, when you get down to it----supply and demand. There is a finite demand for pilots to fill positions, and based on the romance, the adventure, the fun, the possibility of reward, etc there is a constant supply of gleaming-eyed young people (and even a few middle-aged ones like Snakum above!) that are willing to jump through the hurdles, endure all the training and put up with all the hassles for the chance to grab the gold ring. The problem is exactly what was mentioned above---we never know the truth until we have so much time, expense and emotional collateral involved that we don't feel like we have any option but to continue forward. A person I greatly respected told me years ago, it's always easier to go in the direction you're already heading than to fight the tide and head off in a new one. We all just have to wake up every day and decide if and when and at what cost comes that decision to plot a new heading....

Good luck to us all, no matter what decision we make.

 

[COEX-FO]

over 40 and trying to get your first job flying after accumulating hours from flight instruction? ....
I was mostly curious to see how many people are over 40 and trying to start out in this crazy industry.

While some of the above posts are right on in many ways (love the crack cocaine one), I was hired by Express at 50 and I'm happy I did. Sure, I lived through 9-11 and kept my job and now recently upgraded. I have 5 years to go and could not be happier!

Express will hire the person, not the age. If you meet the mins, are willing to work for the published pay scale, then apply. Age is not an issue at all.

If this is what you want to do, then by all means do it and never look back.

 

[Jetboy]

If you enjoy your current gig, even if you just tolerate it, I would strongly caution you against coming to aviation, especially the airlines. 91/135 can be better, but a lot are worse. For a low time guy, the good ones are nearly impossible to find and unfortunately, time isn't on your side to jack around.I have spent my entire life working towards this career, and have found myself flying jets to exotic locales (seriously and sarcasticly) in both drivers seats. I thought that would be the pinnacle of my career. I make decent money, flying good equipment, and literally have two thousand pilots under me on the list. However, I am planning my departure. I can't stand the thought of 30 more years of missing birthdays, weekends, holidays, and the "wonder years" of my kids. The job has also turned something I used to love, flying, into something that is a bore, and worse of all, just a way to earn a paycheck. I hope eventually after I quit flying professionally that the excitement will return and I believe it will. I plan on flying for me as long as they can prop me up in front of the controls. I am not a quitter, but life is too short to spend it inside the confines of a hotel room while it passes you by. Guess where I am now....in a hotel. If you are a recluse and have gypsy blood, this may be for you. It isn't for me. I wish you the best in your truly important deciscion.

As for laying on my deathbed wishing I had done something: I would have no regrets for time I spend with family and friends, but will never get back all the time wasted in a sleazy hotel room.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

While some of the above posts are right on in many ways (love the crack cocaine one), I was hired by Express at 50 and I'm happy I did. Sure, I lived through 9-11 and kept my job and now recently upgraded. I have 5 years to go and could not be happier!

Express will hire the person, not the age. If you meet the mins, are willing to work for the published pay scale, then apply. Age is not an issue at all.

If this is what you want to do, then by all means do it and never look back.

Well said.........pretty much sums it up.

 

[Purpledog]

Go fly frieght

Yeah 'cause it's a blast. <sarcasm>

 

[Snakum]

If you are a recluse and have gypsy blood

I just looked that up in the dictionary, and it was a picture of me.

I should clarify ...

I have already been there for all the birthdays, family get-togethers, etc. and I am glad I was. I don't regret having to wait, really, because being a parent has been the greatest gift I have ever been given. I loved it ... still do. And if I had younger kids I wouldn't be taking another stab at aviation. You are correct when you say that being there for the family is more important than flying to exotic locales in shiney aircraft. So I guess in some ways, I am lucky because I have already done the family thing, and now have the luxury of doing something just for me.

If I do make it ... I guess I can say I got to have my cake and eat it too.



Minh

 

[skyaddict]

"As for laying on my deathbed wishing I had done something: I would have no regrets for time I spend with family and friends, but will never get back all the time wasted in a sleazy hotel room."

Very well said. I feel the same way. Desperately looking for backup options to escape the asylum ASAP. I am even thinking about returning to instructing and doing some odd jobs, just to be at home in my own bed every night instead of that incredible waste of our lives the industry does with the overnights. That said, if one lives in ones' domicile (and actually *wants* to live in that domicile), the job is tolerable in many ways. If one is senior enough to hold day trips to boot, then even better. If one commutes, it's a complete waste of one's life.

Furloughed from a good regional, hired on at a very crappy regional.

 

[pilotyip]

"As for laying on my deathbed wishing I had done something: I would have no regrets for time I spend with family and friends, but will never get back all the time wasted in a sleazy hotel room."

There are two sides to this street; you will find those who retired and look back at opportunities never followed. In hind site they wish they had followed their heart. If you like flying the goal of $100K in 10 years is doable. It will not be waste of your life if you are making a living doing something you like, a job where you enjoy going to work. If you don't like flying then it could be an incredible waste.

 

[Flying Fever]

Like FlyingSkip, I left Aviation for about 10yrs. I was just a private airplane owner, flying for fun. Traded in my plane for two kids at the time. 10yrs later I left a job I was comfortable with money wise, but very much unhappy with other wise. I left that job not to get back into aviation at the time, just had all I could take. I was in my mid 40's, wife and two young kids and had about 1500 hrs, I was a weak IFR pilot, but did have my instrument, commercial and multi. Only 7 hrs multi, time it took to get it back in the 80's.

I stumbled onto a VFR parttime or temp flying job in my search for just any job, so I got current and worked it for a few months. For the next few years I was teased with this kind of work. When I wasn't flying, I worked just a level or two above flipping hamburgers. I was lucky in the fact I had some savings and was dipping into that. But that finally dried up and I was left with the fact I had to make more money or live cheaper. But I lucked into the right seat of jet and that is where I am now. I'm living from paycheck to paycheck, but I am flying and loving it.

I found out a few things in my wandering around for a flying job. 1st, you got to be willing to relocate. I wasn't willing to do that and passed on a lot of jobs. I hated to pack up my family and shake up their lives for me taking a low paying job somewhere. 2nd, it's not your age, but your responsiblites that are working against you. I had several operators tell me they liked me, would like to work me, but know it wouldn't work out becuase they weren't going to pay what it cost to keep up a family. Young guys aren't getting some of these jobs because they are young, they are getting them because they are living with mom and dad or 5 guys in an apartment and living on peanut butter and beer. 3rd, don't change anything you are doing till you see cash for a job. I can't tell you the number of jobs that I supposually had that were going to start next week, but next week never came. Talk is cheap! Just keep that in mind when you are being promised some near about too good to be true deal.

What I do think about age is that it can work in your favor in the 91 world. You sit one day at the airport and watch the pilots getting out of corporate planes. Most of the time there are two and usually one of them is sporting some grey hair. If you talk to the older guys some you'll find some have 10's of thousands of hours, been flying since he was 16 etc. But you also find a lot just have a few thousand hours. Most 91 operators I've found aren't so much about buying a jet to go fast or more convient, that is important, most 1st and foremost reason for buying a turbine plane is because it is safer and they want some one driving that they have confienence in making sound safe deicisons. Not taking anything away from the younger guys, but just an observation I've seen. Doesn't mean you'll get a job because you are old, but you could beat out a 20 some yr old hot pilot if you have the the confidence of the owners.

And probably the biggest factor if you are married is how your wife views all this. For me, my wife is the greatest. She never got on my case about floundering around job wise. She was always supportive and made the sacrafices it took money wise for us to live on what I was doing. She works also and that is a part of the puzzle that has helped me live my dream. She says she doesn't like my time from home, but she accepts it. And for me, I think it has made our relationship stronger. The good to leave and good to get back sort of thing.

My job, like everyone else's here can fly away tomorrow, but for today it's good.

Good luck 52Vincent.

 

[52Vincent]

Flying Skip and Flying Fever, your lives sound like amirror image of mine. I received my PPL in 80 and flew very little the following couple of years. 15 years later I find myself bitten by the bug again, I earned the remainder of my ratings through MEI and started instructing. Then Sept. 11 and the students dropped like flies, was lucky to fly 20 hours a month; couple that with my age, wife and child and checkered job history and life was delivering me a serious blow to the face. I went away for a year and a half with the blessing of my wife for some valuable time building. Iam back home now with 1300 additional hours in that time frame but with no job. Iam faced with the option of doing some more instructing and quite a bit, but it will all be single engine primary stuff, or possibly this other opportunity which Iam leaning toward. I had the option to go to OAK and fly for AMF, but financially could not have made it happen,especially after already being away for so long.
Anyway, thanks for all the great heart-felt responses. It truly is amazing to find that it really is a small world out there when so many people have so much in common.
Like Snakum said if anyone out there is looking for someone to give 110% and be a valuable team player and show the same determination and attitude and willing to take a chance; Let me know.

Thank you for the Shoulder everyone.
BTW: Congatrulations COEX and happy flying in your last 5 years.

52Vincent

 

[Snakum]

it's not your age, but your responsiblites that are working against you.

That's the whole deal really. I no longer have any real responsibilities, except to my present employer and to my Zen teacher - though I do take these seriously. And I have learned thru the lean years of IT (2001 - 2004) how to get by on very little. I can't work for $18K per year, but I can live on $25K or so. And since I don't have young kids, a wife, or a girlfriend, I can pick up and go anywhere if I have to.

The more I think about it ... the more I'm glad things worked out the way they did. I'd rather be me, having fulfilled my filial responsibilities early on and now be set financially such that I can live on Ramen, than to be 25 or 26 years old with a wife and a baby on the way, struggling to find a flying job that will allow me to at least feed my family.

I don't know how some of these young married guys do it ... my hat is certainly off to them.

Minh "Old Fart With Few Worries" Thong

 

[PGH STEEL]

YEA YEA YEA Days are long alot of time away from home but I cant think of anything else I'd rather be doing.

 

[350DRIVER]

thanks letters"(granted, the sim. could have gone better). Could my age be a factor? I have heard from other airline pilots that the regionals would prefer people in their 20 or 30's.

Age should not be viewed as a concern or issue here, keep plugging away and you will get your foot in the door. Many older than you have been hired and many more will continue to get hired throughout the industry. You will hear a few opinions tossed around this board where a "few" will attempt to blame age as a factor of not getting the job offer but this should not be considered the norm with regards to hiring practices. If this is what you want then nothing can stop you other than yourself.

 

[Ty Webb]

My "take" on it is a little different.

Aviation is a cyclical industry, as we can all attest to. I graduated a University flight school in 1990 with a whopping 600/50ME. I was looking for that first job right as the industry went into the last great aviation depression. Eventually, I gave up, and worked in the business world, and I am sure I sounded like some of the other posters in this string.

Then, along came 1996, and things started looking up. My friends who had been hired at "THE COMMUTERS" as they were called then, started upgrading, after maybe 3-4 years in the right seat of a B1900, and started talking about majors starting to interview again . . . . . I started getting current again, took my ATP written, and went to SimCom and got some multi-engine sim time. . . then I hit the bricks on a job search that took me as far as the British Virgin Islands. I came home to Tampa with three job offers, 2 were flying Part 135 VFR in piston twin, 1 was IFR in CE402's. I took that one, got a little right seat time in a corporate jet (by accident) and started pursuing that. A year later, I had a corporate jet Type Rating, and was making $45K . . . progressed to about $60k and got hired by a LCC. Three years later, I was a 737 CA.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that it is doable, but a lot of it is in the timing, and if you want to do this, you need to guage the timing of the cycle to your advantage.

For example- you don't want to be (and can't afford to be) a regional FO for 5 years and the same goes for flying freight in piston twins. So you don't want to be getting in the door when there is no movement, like right now. But things will change, and you want to be ready. You say you want to stay corporate? Well, once the airlines start hiring again, many pilots will be either leaving for airlines, or returning, and jobs will be more plentiful, the progression quicker, and the pay better.

So, what I would do if I were you is make as much money as you can right now, outside of aviation. Keep your hand in it, by instructing part-time, if you can, and keep up with your contacts. Squirrel some money away. When things start moving again, get current, but I mean really current! None of this "the sim could have gone better" stuff. If necessary, spend some of the money you put away while working towards getting either your ATP (if you have the TT) or at some place that provides professional sim training in turbine aircraft- perhaps even get a CE-500 type-rating (you can do this and make it your ATP ride, too, if you have the 1500TT). That'll get you current, will give you a better idea of what is expected of you, and having a type-rating will show prospective employers that you can progress to the next level and may open the door to gettng some right-seat CE-500 contract work, which will introduce you to many people to build your contact base- people you meet at FBO's around the country, and in training, etc. That is how 80% of corporate jobs get filled.

Good luck. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I don't think age is a barrier. Most regionals aren't looking for lifelong employees. Senior pilots cost more than junior pilots. They are looking for people with a good attitude that can make it through training. I think they'd prefer you to work there for 3-5 years and move on so you can be replaced with someone cheaper.

 

[b757driver]

There are so many factors to take into consideration, you cannot generalize. Some companies prefer more mature candidates, others the opposite. COEX-FO (above) would beg to differ from your views DB!! You speak probably from your own experience and what MOST regionals go for but.....there is ALWAYS an exception, if you look hard enough.
Age should nt have any bearing but of course, we all know that sometimes it does despite those "we are an equal opportunity employer" quotes.
Go for what's right for you and do your homework. An interview is a TWO way street - even in hard times. You are there also to see if the job fits your needs etc.