How does the military choose which pilot goes to the war?

[PureMuscle]

How exacty does the military choose which pilots go to war and which ones don't. It s based on years of experience?

 

[KC-10 Driver]

It's generally based on your unit of assignment. If your aircraft or unit is needed, you go. If only part of a unit goes, then perhaps experience plays a part in the decision. Or, maybe squadron politics might play a part.

However, in my experience, in a partial unit deployment, a good cross section of experience levels deploy.

 

[talondriver]

I know a guy who was MQT'd in the viper as a brand new wingman during Desert Shield and subsequently flew combat missions during Desert Storm.

I also know a guy who was MQT'd in the Eagle as a brand new wingman during Desert Shield but stayed home during Desert Storm while his unit racked up the kills.

We like to to think the first situation is what should happen since you are technically certified to carry out your squadron's war doctrine after MQT and certification. BUT, we also know the individual wing commanders can do whatever they want with their squadrons.

My Eagle buddy's squadron put together a "Dream Team" (if you will) and sent them over. Some of the requirements were two-ship flight lead qual and at least one flag exercise under their belt. There were also a lot of FWIC grads on that team which wasn't a surprise.

That was then. Nowadays everyone's logging combat time due to all the obligations "forward".

 

[CrewDawg]

In our last deployment, we had two guys 4-5 months out of the B-course at luke.

 

[TankerDriver]

I'm assuming this question was aimed mostly at fighter pilots, but as a tanker pilot, I was sent over to "the war" a week after I was mission qual'd, which for me was about 3 months after I PCS'd to my base out of Altus. At the time, 3 months was a long time. I knew guys who mission qual'd in 4 weeks and were out the door a week later. Of course, we don't drop bombs though.

 

[PureMuscle]

Thanks guys'. I was always curious as to how they go about choosing things like that.

 

[RedDogC130]

I changed this reponse b/c it did come off a little harsh. Let me re-do it. The younger pilots will get tasked many more time than the older ones due to some of the reasons Albie and TD listed below. They covered it so nothing more to say from me. Thanks Albie and TD. You took my thoughts and put them into a real paragraph. Mabye that is why I can't seal the deal at the darn airline interview. Later

 

[AlbieF15]

Red Dog,

I don't want to sound condescending or like a know it all when I say this, so just take it for what its worth.

I heard similar arguments a while back in my current wing from some of the young captains. The fact is, some of those guys were in high school when I was off getting shot at on the ground in the first Gulf War. They were off at college during my first, second, third, and fourth TDY to the container for no-fly zone enforcement. They also missed those weeks out of the squadron I took doing other exercises, like Keen Edge over in PACAF.

So...they look at the roster and ask "why do I have to go--when THIS GUY or THAT GUY (use whatever old guy to fill the blank)" hasn't gone recently. The answer is generally something like "when you have as many days TDY as I do then we'll start making it equal..." Perfect system? Of course not. However--don't just judge what is going on by what you see happening this week or even this year in your squadron. I have a lot of friends who spend YEARS TDY to the various contingency locations around the globe, and remember a time when 120 days TDY per year was baseline and 180-200 wasn't out of the norm. I know the GWOT and post Iraqi Freedom world depends a lot more on Tac airlift guys then fighter guys, but from 1992-2003 there were squadrons deployed for extended periods to Saudi, Turkey, and Kuwait continously. If you squadron is anything like mine, there are a lot of "old" guys who have missed a lot of birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays over the years, and a look at the last 12-24 months of bad deal list won't show you the full story.

On the other hand--if they are just sandbagging you--shame on them.

 

[TankerDriver]

It all depends on your "other" job. Lots of people work the system and get jobs working in the OG or Wing so they get to stay home more. Others who don't have jobs or as important of a job get to deploy more often. IP's are scarce, so they get to stay home quite a bit more, especially the ones working for OGT. For the most part, the younger guys get sent out a lot to gain experience so they can go to upgrade (in the heavy world). Lately, it seems as though we are getting more hours than good experience, since being over in the desert for 200+ days a year flying circles over Iraq with one to a full stop when we get back isn't very beneficial when the squadron decides to send you on a TACC tasked Coronet, Capstone or Business Effort as a new AC. Right now, going from copilot to AC in the tanker takes about a year and a half, but I digress.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Red Dog,

I don't want to sound condescending or like a know it all when I say this, so just take it for what its worth.

I heard similar arguments a while back in my current wing from some of the young captains. The fact is, some of those guys were in high school when I was off getting shot at on the ground in the first Gulf War. They were off at college during my first, second, third, and fourth TDY to the container for no-fly zone enforcement. They also missed those weeks out of the squadron I took doing other exercises, like Keen Edge over in PACAF.

So...they look at the roster and ask "why do I have to go--when THIS GUY or THAT GUY (use whatever old guy to fill the blank)" hasn't gone recently. The answer is generally something like "when you have as many days TDY as I do then we'll start making it equal..." Perfect system? Of course not. However--don't just judge what is going on by what you see happening this week or even this year in your squadron. I have a lot of friends who spend YEARS TDY to the various contingency locations around the globe, and remember a time when 120 days TDY per year was baseline and 180-200 wasn't out of the norm. I know the GWOT and post Iraqi Freedom world depends a lot more on Tac airlift guys then fighter guys, but from 1992-2003 there were squadrons deployed for extended periods to Saudi, Turkey, and Kuwait continously. If you squadron is anything like mine, there are a lot of "old" guys who have missed a lot of birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays over the years, and a look at the last 12-24 months of bad deal list won't show you the full story.

On the other hand--if they are just sandbagging you--shame on them.

Albie--Let me start this post by saying I have all the respect in the world for you. I used your services and you helped me get hired by UPS last year.

Current Sq CC's were the ones who chose not to chase the airlines in the late 90's and just prior to 9/11. To label these guys as AF Yesmen would be accurate. How does averaging 240 days in the desert per year since 9/11 sound? That's what the O-3s and below have been doing while senior leaders were at home debating the new fitness uniform. The USAF is so political today, especially AMC, that to get ahead you had better champion every whim and each pet cause of your leadership chain. Rickenbacker, Mitchell, Arnold, Lemay, Daugherty, and Warden would be ashamed.

TankerDriver-- Don't you dare apologize for flying combat sorties as a tanker pilot!!! We were sent in during the first few days of OIF and the CFACC fully expected tankers to be shot down. We were there when the F-15Cs were on their way back to Kadena because they had no role in the fight. I saw plenty of AAA, MANPADS, and "science experiments" being fired up over my airplane while at 12000' refueling A-10s and 130s. And we did this with no defensive systems and no way to counter the threats. No other air campaign in history depended more on air refueling than OIF. I do not cower or defer to any fighter pilot regarding combat experience. It takes a lot of balls to pilot a flying gas tank when AAA bursts are knocking your altitude hold off. You don't have to drop bombs to be a combat pilot.

 

[Deuce130]

Albie--Let me start this post by saying I have all the respect in the world for you. I used your services and you helped me get hired by UPS last year.

Current Sq CC's were the ones who chose not to chase the airlines in the late 90's and just prior to 9/11. To label these guys as AF Yesmen would be accurate. How does averaging 240 days in the desert per year since 9/11 sound? That's what the O-3s and below have been doing while senior leaders were at home debating the new fitness uniform. The USAF is so political today, especially AMC, that to get ahead you had better champion every whim and each pet cause of your leadership chain. Rickenbacker, Mitchell, Arnold, Lemay, Daugherty, and Warden would be ashamed.

TankerDriver-- Don't you dare apologize for flying combat sorties as a tanker pilot!!! We were sent in during the first few days of OIF and the CFACC fully expected tankers to be shot down. We were there when the F-15Cs were on their way back to Kadena because they had no role in the fight. I saw plenty of AAA, MANPADS, and "science experiments" being fired up over my airplane while at 12000' refueling A-10s and 130s. And we did this with no defensive systems and no way to counter the threats. No other air campaign in history depended more on air refueling than OIF. I do not cower or defer to any fighter pilot regarding combat experience. It takes a lot of balls to pilot a flying gas tank when AAA bursts are knocking your altitude hold off. You don't have to drop bombs to be a combat pilot.

LJ, you sound pretty upset about this issue, maybe you had some bad experiences, I don't know. But, to label all AF SQ/CC "AF Yesmen" is a serious stretch. If that's truly the way you think then I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did in the AF. Did you work to undermine them with the crew dogs or did you just save it for flightinfo? Everyone is deployed alot, but, according to AF stats, noone is averaging 240 days a year deployed. The latest stats had rescue and AFSOC leading the way with something around 118 days a year on average. Yes, there are exceptions to that as anyone can tell you. But, to say the average tanker crewdog has been gone 240 days/year is not accurate. Second, get the chip off your shoulder. The flying done in the beginning of OEF and OIF is distinctly different than the flying being done now. Lots of us are racking up 01 time for relatively simple flying. That's just the nature of the beast. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just the way it is.

Lastly, AFSOC have the only refuelable hercs, and I never heard about anyone being shot at while on the boom. Did lots of ARs over Baghdad and in the western desert, which I appreciate and we couldn't have done it without tankers, but do you have any examples of a refueling formation being shot at or bumped around by AAA bursts? Just curious.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

TankerDriver-- Don't you dare apologize for flying combat sorties as a tanker pilot!!! We were sent in during the first few days of OIF and the CFACC fully expected tankers to be shot down. We were there when the F-15Cs were on their way back to Kadena because they had no role in the fight. I saw plenty of AAA, MANPADS, and "science experiments" being fired up over my airplane while at 12000' refueling A-10s and 130s. And we did this with no defensive systems and no way to counter the threats. No other air campaign in history depended more on air refueling than OIF. I do not cower or defer to any fighter pilot regarding combat experience. It takes a lot of balls to pilot a flying gas tank when AAA bursts are knocking your altitude hold off. You don't have to drop bombs to be a combat pilot.

You sound like a total SNAP!

 

[Deuce130]

You sound like a total SNAP!

What's a SNAP?

 

[USMCAirWinger]

What's a SNAP?

Sensitive New Age Pilot

 

[stonewall]

I'm glad I didn't have as bad an experience in the AF as Lil J. Bitter. Maybe the guys that stuck around in the 90s didn't care about chasing the all-mighty dollar. Maybe they liked their job and felt good about it. Maybe their families did, too. To say they were all "yes-men" is a ridiculous comment and that needs to be said. I served under some great leaders who are still active today and climbing the ranks, and they DO care about the Air Force and the ARE providing outstanding leadership.

I've flown with guys like you. Guys that grumble all the time about how they're getting screwed, how their commander doesn't recognize their inputs/accomplishments, how the taskings are too tough and this or that guy gets better deals than us pogues. It's called an attitude problem, Little J, and squadron mates like you unneccesarily sow dissent in the ranks and undermine their commanders. No doubt, you think when you sound off you're standing up to the bad "yes-men" who are asking you to do something they can't or won't do. Let me tell you, this happens very, very, very rarely in the USAF. I can't believe only your units are the exception. In reality, you were just bitching and moaning.

I think you are prone to wild exaggerations. You take isolated incidents that may have happened to you, embellish them, and apply them across the broad sprectrum of the AF. A/P knocked off by AAA? Highly dubious claim. If you can point me to someone who can back that up, I'd like to hear that story. If there were USAF tanker bros dodging MANPADS and AAA, all God bless 'em. That's the kind of stuff legends are made of...I just don't think it happened.

How do you walk with a chip that big on your shoulder?

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

No chip on my shoulder. I was the good soldier on active duty and kept my grumblings to myself. I realized it was not fair to the younger guys if their AC was bitching so I always had a positive attitude. I stand by every word in my orginial post. Do you guys really believe the propaganda the Majcoms put out about average days deployed!? Maybe if you factor in the non-mission ready Wg/CC and the myriad of execs. 10 folks who were deployed 0 days lower the average for the guys deployed over 200.

I was deployed over 220 days in 2003, 2004, and was half way there in 2005 before my separation. Check with any tanker pilot and they'll tell you similar stats.

The last week of March 2003 saw numerous reports of KC-135s being fired upon. It was a miracle none were lost. I saw AAA, I saw manpads, and I took evasive action to avoid it. You pointy nose jet guys can roll your eyes all you want, but it was a significant life event for me to take a tanker into 75 degrees of bank while making a 180 degree turn because there were airburst so close in front of us that we could feel the percussion. Also, keep in mind I had as much tactical maneuvering training as the average RJ pilot at American Eagle--which is to say none.

I never refueled MC-130s while being fired upon. You guys generally took your gas in safer places. But it was a daily occurrence for a few weeks while refueling the F-16s and A-10s. The Iraqis knew that if they turned on their radar guidance systems that the F-16s would kill them. Thus they threw up a lot of unguided stuff at the tankers. Maybe I am being overdramatic. The guys logging combat time today over Iraq should not be bragging about it because that's a joke. But tanker guys who logged combat and combat support time in March/April 2003 should be proud of it and not apologetic towards anyone.

An on a final note. I was extremely disappointed by O-5 and above leadership during the last few years. You can't paint everyone with the same brush and there were/are some great leaders out there. It just seemed to me that they cared more about their careers than they did about their deployed troops.

 

[stonewall]

I'm not rolling my eyes at you and you should be proud of what you did. I have friends in all MAJCOMS and in most MWS. It's a team effort. I've never bragged about combat time turning in circles.

I think you were a little overdramatic, but I wasn't sitting next to you. I just saw (and continue to see) much different leaders and a much different AF than you saw.


PS. Q: What's the definition of "heavy fire?"
A: Anything coming at you!

 

[Fox-Tree]

The last week of March 2003 saw numerous reports of KC-135s being fired upon. It was a miracle none were lost. I saw AAA, I saw manpads, and I took evasive action to avoid it. ............... But it was a daily occurrence for a few weeks while refueling the F-16s and A-10s.

If this is true: I'll tell you what the miracle is....

That you let the guy picking the location of air refueling tracks do it more than once! Probably the same guy that manages to fly in the weather at the bottom of the refueling block when it's clear 1000' above.

Give me a break. Iraq is big enough to find a spot that's not directly over a few ragheads with manpads and some AAA.

I'm sure the A-10/F-16 pilots would have been more than willing to drive a few extra miles away from the bad guys to get some gas. Most A-10/F-16 pilots I know are smart enough to take whatever steps necessary to avoid making this a "daily occurrence".

Strange how in 1991, we were able to orchestrate the largest offensive air operation since Vietnam, with the Iraqi military completely intact without getting shot at while refueling. They gave medals to some tanker guys just for flying into Iraq to help a fighter bro who was hurting on gas. Somehow in 2003, with the Iraqi military a fraction of its former self, we couldn't find a safe location to avoid dodging AAA and manpads in the AAR tracks?

 

[Traderd]

How exacty does the military choose which pilots go to war and which ones don't. It s based on years of experience?

In the Army, they stick a mirror under your nose. If it fogs up, off you go.

 

[TankerDriver]

Do you guys really believe the propaganda the Majcoms put out about average days deployed!? Maybe if you factor in the non-mission ready Wg/CC and the myriad of execs. 10 folks who were deployed 0 days lower the average for the guys deployed over 200.

I was deployed over 220 days in 2003, 2004, and was half way there in 2005 before my separation. Check with any tanker pilot and they'll tell you similar stats.

I would have to agree. Duece, as a C-130 guy, considering it's the most deployed airframe in AMC, I would have thought you'd know better not to buy into those bull$hit TDY numbers. The KC-135 is the 2nd most deployed airframe in AMC right now, slightly behind the 130. We're actually gone more than the C-17 guys. This is right from 18th AF commander, General Hawkins mouth. "The latest stats had rescue and AFSOC leading the way with something around 118 days a year on average." I don't know where the heck they are getting those numbers from, but again, they're bull$hit. I was TDY to the desert 130 days between the middle of July of '05 and the end of Jan '06. I got almost exactly two months home between deployments. 130 days in 7 months and that was actually a little below what we have been considering "average" for line pilots around here. Of course this doesn't include the TACC taskings we get while we're home that send us away for 7-10 days on average. I know guys that have been TDY 275+ days a year in the tanker. Now, I'm not bitching and moaning and trying to make this a TDY pissing match, but my point is, those numbers are BS. To get those numbers, they count everyone in the ops group. Out of 40 or so pilots in my squadron, a good 8-10 of them are undeployable right now because they have group jobs and need to fly a desk. That's just 1 of 4 squadrons here. Of course, all the 0's that these pilots contribute to the average drop it down significantly.

 

[chum2]

How exacty does the military choose which pilots go to war and which ones don't.

If you got wings, you're on the hook.

 

[K-Mart]

Maybe if you factor in the non-mission ready Wg/CC and the myriad of execs.

I wouldn't want that job for the life of me. A WG/CC for the most parts has done his duty and more. Talk about pulling your hair out. I wouldn't want to do it. Give them that at least. They have a very hard job. Long hours beyond long.

10 folks who were deployed 0 days lower the average for the guys deployed over 200.

Don't keep score just worry about doing a good job in your current position. That is what matters most. Have fun and always remember you are blessed for where you are at!

I was deployed over 220 days in 2003, 2004, and was half way there in 2005 before my separation. Check with any tanker pilot and they'll tell you similar stats.

Again don't keep score!

The last week of March 2003 saw numerous reports of KC-135s being fired upon. It was a miracle none were lost. I saw AAA, I saw manpads, and I took evasive action to avoid it. You pointy nose jet guys can roll your eyes all you want, but it was a significant life event for me to take a tanker into 75 degrees of bank while making a 180 degree turn because there were airburst so close in front of us that we could feel the percussion. Also, keep in mind I had as much tactical maneuvering training as the average RJ pilot at American Eagle--which is to say none.

You should be proud!

The guys logging combat time today over Iraq should not be bragging about it because that's a joke.

Couldn't agree more!

An on a final note. I was extremely disappointed by O-5 and above leadership during the last few years.

Can't blame you especially when it comes to those trying to get ahead. What it boils down to though is the AF Active Duty is a culture wrapped around a promotion up or out mentality. It is a career and if you want to stay then playing the game is a must. If you don't play the game and expect to be rewarded ( As if you are staying in to be an 0-5), you will be disapointed and disgruntled. You can be the ace of the base but if leaders above feel you aren't in it for the long run then likely you will be rated average. That is the way it is and always will be. Who cares though, being a good guy (or gal) and a good pilot are what is important,nt what the SQ/CC says on your OPR or whether or not you won CG or IP of the year. It's politics that earn those rewards. And kudos to those that achieve them. It is not easy. I wouldn't take anything too seriously about your AF career! It's a little like the Boy Scouts. You do it, learn a lot, make some friends but going into high school you have other priorities. Like sports, girls and beer. To those that stay and get there eagle badge (0-5) congrats!!!!!

 

[Fletch F Fletch]

Try not to strain your shoulders patting yourselves on the back. The dude who asked the question is working on his privates. Jeesh.

 

[SIG600]

In the Army, they stick a mirror under your nose. If it fogs up, off you go.

Is there a time limit to how long you can hold your breath?