How do I fly for a living when I can't afford it?

[A Squared]

Thanks for the visual images. With a talent like that, why don't you write for Family Guy?

Who'd a guessd Nosehair was a Family Guy fan?

 

[A Squared]

Folks,

I'd like to direct attention to a couple of things. Backing up to TOGA's initial appearence, recall that his post was not to show Rumpletumbler how to save money on his mortgage. In fact, I'd guess that Rumpletumbler doesn't even have a mortgage. Rather TOGA's post was to recruit RUmpletumbler into this ....ummmmm.... industry.

I can be contacted through the website, or you can PM me here. I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have, no pressure.

Notice how in order to take advantage of this wonderful opportunity,. RUmpletumbler needs to contact TOGA, not the folks who are running this ....ummmm...industry.

.......and the size of the cut depends upon one's cumulative total number of sales.

Now, doing a little reading between the lines, I'm betting that "cumulative sales" means: what you sell plus what the folks you recruit sell, Otherwise, why would new "agents" get involved through another existing agent, rather than go directly to the main office and sign up? (Am I right TOGA?) which means that this whole thing is just another Multi-Level Marketing Scheme. And, as most of us know, A "Multi-level marketing" scheme operates on the same principle as a Ponzi scheme.

SO, TOGA...How much does it cost to become an "agent" and how much of that do you get, when you recruit one?

Before you claim that there is not fee to bevcome an agent, I should mentino that I already researched it, so I know that there is, plus you have to buy the software. So, this is the Ponzi scheme, and like all poinzi shemes, it works really well for hte ones who were there first, but those who join later just lose thier money.

As far as the product itself, ther is nothing, repeat *nothing* that this $3500 software program will do for you that you can't do yourself. Even your claim of 5% efficiency over doing it yourself is pure bull$hit. The key here is setting up a home equity line of credit, ($250 at a reputable finacial insitiution) and using it in the way described, and most importantly, having the discipline to not spend a lot of money and put as much as possible toward the mortgange. There is no magic, none at all. If you have the discipline to do this, the program doesn't provide some magic that makes the numbers magically better, and if you don't have that discipline, this program doesn't provide some magic to give you that discipline.

It's that simple folks. It's a multi-level marketing scheme (read Ponzi Scheme) to collect fees for sighing up "agents" to sell a product that provides absolutely nothing you can't do yourself.

- Products like this have been available in Europe and Australia for decades.

Although this may be true, it's completely meaningless, scams exist weverywhere. Bet this has been around for decadeds in Nigeria

- Most clients are running 20-25% ahead of their originally-projected savings.

Unlikely to be true, but menaingless nonetheless.

- MMAs cannot be a scam . . . noone ever has access to any of your money.

Not true, they have access to $3500 of your money, that's where the scam comes in.

- MMAs cannot be a ripoff . . . they come with a money-back, written guarantee.

Virtually all scams come with a "money back guarentee". COllecting on that guarentee is nother story. In fact, so many scams trumpet thier "money bback guarentee" that it's become an indication that whatever is being sold is likely a scam.

 

[A Squared]

One more thing to consider here:

When you go to the page linked* The fundamental claim on of the program is a grotesque lie. A lie that is very easily seen for a lie by anyone who can do a little math.

Here's the lie:

The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.

Sorry, this is utter bull$hit. Can't happen. Let's work an example.

Let's say you have $200,000 on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage at 5.5%. No escrow, nothing else, $200K at 5.5% for 30 years.

Now the claim is that this scam works by paying down your principal instead of paying interest.

OK, let's examine the best possible case scenario and see how that matches with thier claims: $200k at 5.5% for 30 years will be a monthly payment of around $1135. Now suppose this program allows you to pay absolutely no interest, an all of your payment pays down principle. That's impossible, you aren't ever going to avoid all interest, but let's just say for the moment that you can avoid interest completely. Remember the claim is that you don't change your payment at all and *on the average* pay off the mortgage in 1/2 to 1/3 the time The math is simple. if you're paying $1135 with zero interest it takes 176.2 months to pay off the $200K principal, or 14-1/2 years. That's about half the time, but, that assumes zero percent interest, which is absurd. Your mortgage company will not stop charging you interest, and the bank where you get your home equity line of credit will also charge you interest.

So best case scenario with all interest forgiven it would still tak about 50% as long to pay off the principal without increasing your monthly payment. So given that zero interest mortgages and lines of credit are impossible (unless you have a benevolent rich uncle) The claim that the average client pays off his mortgage in 1/3 to 1/2 the time without increasing his monthly payment is a lie. Period. It's a lie because it's mathematically impossible. Now, if the main sales pitch on the main page of the website is an obvious, clumsy lie that is revealed by just a little number crunching, what are the odds that everything else on the webpage is honest?

Anyone? Beuller?

OK. let's recap:

The product is being sold by claims that are mathematically impossible, and in it's most generous analysis, doesn't do anything you couldn't do for yourself.

The organization is a Multi-level marketing scheme that takes money from "agents" and passes it to the top, essentially a Ponzi Scheme.

Any questions?


*notice also how you go the the personal page of the "agent" (TOGA) and you can't actually go the to main page of the comapny without going through TOGA. Interesting. That in itself is a typical feature of a Multi-level marketing scam. My Insurange is though an Allstate agent, but I can sure as hell get directly to the Allstate website, without my access being controlled by my agent. That's how ethical companies operate.

 

[rumpletumbler]

I'm going to check around and see if I can find somewhere that will allow me to teach part time if I can make it work.

The most important thing would be that the student not suffer at my expense. I wouldn't want to do that under any circumstances. How much time would I need to block per student? I realize this is likely variable but I'd just like to have an idea of how much time I would need to devote so that I can serve the student best. Also since it's dark here when I get off from my regular job I'd be limited to weekends most likely unless I had more advanced students. How many times a week does one need to fly etc.? I would think more than just Sat/Sun but I don't know that's why I'm asking. I have my CFI/II but haven't taught yet as the divorce happened right after acquiring these.

 

[TWA]

At the FBO I'm with, the standard practice is to block two hours for every hour of flight time.

If you are only available on weekends, then look for students that also have full time jobs and might only be available on the weekends. You could also just do BFRs and rental checkouts until you get more time to take on full time students.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Good idea.

Does anyone want anything on a resume other than flight time/medical information for a CFI position? My resume is pretty much all IT related now. I thought I'd just do a page with the flight times and medical info and attach it to the other Resume.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

From what I've heard, most places are short on CFI's. I'm sure a simple resume with your times and last job would be more than adequate.

Best thing to do is to walk your resume into each flight school on the field and introduce yourself. Sending a resume in may not be as effective.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Don't sweat a resume too much at the CFI level. A few stories and a handshake are usually all that's needed to lock the job.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Back in the summer, flight express was hiring VFR 135 guys (500TT). 43K/year to start if you work your butt off. 1k signing bonus. Regular as clockwork. Mostly daytime runs. All weekends and bank holidays off, no exceptions. For me it was a good place to work. Now that the weather is crappy, they may not be doing VFR guys anymore, I don't know. Something to think about, anyway.

*ahem* I have no financial stake in FLX whatsoever.

Whatever you decide, I hope things get better.

 

[TOGA]

Ok guys, sorry it's taken so long to respond. A 23 hour 3 day, a two leg commute, and two kids at home . . . whew!


WabiSabi -


Being a skeptic myself, I did exactly the same research before getting involved in this. If you really read that stuff, you'll find that the only people opposed to this system don't actually understand how it works. Believe me when I tell you that my BS flag went full staff when I heard about this. Fortunately, I get it now. It's amazing how well-trained the banks have us . . . so much so that we vehemently oppose a system that will help immensely in freeing us from their yokes. Furthermore, if it only takes “a little effort” and “a little discipline” to do this oneself, why do so few do so? It's the same reason people who have the capability of getting themselves in shape pay a personal trainer. Even if a financially astute person does this very well themselves, they'll only get close to the same results, not exactly the same results, and you will have had to do it all yourself with no personalized coaching and customer service, instead of using task-specific software with an easy, live “dashboard” of your financial picture. Please refer to the 95% accuracy comments in my previous post (which I stand by to the letter).
Regarding your comment that sales representatives are the only ones that would make this argument, I'd add to that list financial professionals with vision and, most importantly, over 98% of our clients. As for the 'mortgage debt is good' argument . . . sure it is, compared to other kinds of debt. Yes, the mortgage interest tax deduction is great, if you have to have a mortgage. But are you really going to choose to pay $3 in interest to save $1 in income tax? If you're using mortgage debt to leverage money for a margin, that might be worth your while. Keep in mind, you can accelerate the payoff of your mortgage using an MMA and continue with whatever other investment strategies you may have. 'Pay $3500 toward your mortgage and forget the software' . . . do that, and you'll save tens of thousands, instead of possibly hundreds of thousands by buying the software. As for putting the fee on a credit card, the fee is payable with personal or cashiers checks only. We all know there are ways a client could put that on their credit card . . . all I can do is strongly advise them against that course of action.


A Squared -


Your derisive sarcasm is duly noted and, sadly, not rare. Resistance to change is, after all, human nature . . . who can blame you? I do appreciate that you took some time to check out my website, and I appreciate that you didn't become agitated and sophomoric and call me names, like others here and elsewhere. Now, as for your specific points . . . my original post was actually an attempt to help a brother out. Rumpletumbler stated a need for additional income, I made a suggestion. So we're clear on the structure of the business, I make nothing for recruiting an agent. The only way I make money is if an agent downline to me makes a sale AND I've made more total sales than they have. It costs $175 to become an agent. For this, you get all the marketing assistance you'll need, including the website you looked at. Is this MLM? The founders of the company bristle at that term . . . personally, I don't have a problem with it. ALL franchise businesses the world over are basically MLM. McDonald's, Allstate, Quiznos, etc . . . all MLM. Not only that, but there are some key differences between United First and a typical MLM. One I already stated . . . I don't get anything for simply recruiting an agent. Also, agents are NOT required to purchase the product. Lastly, in order to make any upline cut, I have to be a better seller than the downline agent. In other words, it all about selling, not recruiting. Ahhh, yes the “Ponzi Scheme” comment . . . Wikipedia has a great page that tells anyone who's interested what a Ponzi Scheme actually is . . . United First is nothing of the sort. One main reason: there actually is a product. Boy, the words “Ponzi” and “scheme” sure are fun dramatizations to throw at someone though, aren't they?
As for a person being forced to go through me . . . jeesh, where do I start? I work on commission . . . how else would you like me to direct people to this product? Here's the corporate website: www.U1stFinancial.com . . . have at it. Your Allstate agent is what's known in the insurance industry as a “captive” agent . . . I'm an independent sales representative. That's a big difference that explains a large degree of your heartburn over a person being 'forced' to go through me (which they're not, anyway). I actually agree with your 'no magic' comment . . . you're right, there is none, it's just math. The math can work for you, or for your lender . . . your choice. I was unclear on one comment you made. You seem to imply that my clients have to get their home equity line of credit through me. I not sure if that's what you were saying, but that is not the case. United First is not a financial institution, we sell software with coaching and customer service included.
As for your comments comparing the existence of this product in Australia and Europe to the Nigerian scams . . . ask an Australian or a European if you'd like verification. The ones I've spoken to are frustrated that the U.S. banks make it so much harder to pay off a mortgage early. MMA clients are running, on average, 20 to 25% ahead of their originally projected savings . . . that's a statistically proven fact. Willfully writing a check for an actual, valuable product does not, in my book, constitute being scammed. My comments in that regard refer to the fact that no one ever has access to any of your accounts. Thus, you can't be scammed. As for the guarantee . . . if the product does not work at least as well as projected, you get your money back. Of course, it's mathematically impossible that it wouldn't work, but that's beside the point. Be careful your skepticism doesn't develop into full-blown cynicism. Do you trust that the mechanics have accomplished the work detailed in the logbook?
Regarding your mathematical example . . . your math is so flawed, I can't even respond. I'd suggest going to www.BankRate.com, finding the 'additional payments' calculator, and working some of the math there. Your example shows a lack of understanding of compound interest, amortization, and the effect of additional principal payments. This is a fact that has nothing to do with your pejorative attitude toward MMAs.


To all -


I have to say I regret posting here. It appears to be pointless. Too much ill-informed, sophomoric banter, not enough knowledgeable debate. This product is not magic, but it is revolutionary. It gives the power to the masses, in a simple and easy to understand manner. It is worth every penny and more. Having said all that, I'm signing off on this subject. Never again will I post anything on here about this. So, doubters, here's your free shot . . . flame away. You won't get an answer. If anyone has any real questions, please PM or email through the website.

 

[A Squared]

Willfully writing a check for an actual, valuable product does not, in my book, constitute being scammed.

No, but willfully writing a check for a worthless product which has been fraudulently misrepresented does constitute being scammed, in anyone’s book.

Regarding your mathematical example . . . your math is so flawed, I can't even respond. I'd suggest going to www.BankRate.com, finding the 'additional payments' calculator, and working some of the math there. Your example shows a lack of understanding of compound interest, amortization, and the effect of additional principal payments.

Actually TOGA, I understand "compound interest, amortization, and the effect of additional principal payments" just fine, quite well in fact.

You're missing the point in referring me to using an "additional payments" calculator, your webpage says I can pay off a mortgage in 1/3 the time *without* increasing monthly payments, which is a lie, can't be done.

Actual quote:

The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.

Sure you can pay a mortgage off in 1/3 the time if you make additional payments. In fact I'm just about to close my own mortgage out in less than half the time, by making additional payments. Your website is selling a some magic you claim accomplishes that without additional payments.

So I say, put up or shut up. Take your magic program and compute up an example of how that's happens and post all the figures for everyone to see, what money goes where.

Here's the hypothetical: $200k Mortgage on a $250K house. 30 years at 5.5%, monthly payments are $1135. Just to keep it simple, let's say the HELOPC is at 5.5% too. so how us the series of 120 monthly (1/3 of 30 years) cash flows which pays off the mortgage and brings the HELOC to zero.

Shouldn’t be that hard, 120 sets of numbers which show money into and money out of the HELOC, balance of the HELOC and Mortgage, how much of each Mortgage payment is interest and principal.

You can't do it.

You won't even try, you'll slink off and hide under a rock like the snake oil salesman that you are.


Prove me wrong

 

[TOGA]

Oh, for crying out loud, man!! I thought you said you'd done some research on this. I thought you said you had some understanding of the math involved. OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money. That's the whole idea! You borrow the bank's money (HELoC), pay the mortgage down with it, then pay the HELoC back, then borrow the bank's money again, then pay it back again, etc, etc . . . 'til all the debt's gone. You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt. There's your freakin' "Snake Oil"! I'm sorry I didn't spell that out. Again, I thought you had the basic concept. If anyone wants to see your own numbers, or even theoretical ones, just fill out the analysis form on the website . . . no cost, no commitment. Ok, once and for all . . . "Snake Oil Salesman" signing off.

 

[avbug]

TOGA,

Are you familiar with the concept of the paragraph? Your writing reads like you're not. Thirty or forty sentences without a break is hard on the eyes...and leads one to gloss over whatever you're saying.

Then again, so does such non-sequitor concepts as...

Be careful your skepticism doesn't develop into full-blown cynicism. Do you trust that the mechanics have accomplished the work detailed in the logbook?

You're trying to draw a parallel between how one views your efforts to hawk your product, and the signatures in a logbook on an airplane? Are you suggesting that because one trusts a federally certificated mechanic performing a professional function, one should trust you selling your product? Are you familiar with the concept of apples and oranges?

The only way I make money is if an agent downline to me makes a sale AND I've made more total sales than they have. It costs $175 to become an agent. For this, you get all the marketing assistance you'll need, including the website you looked at. Is this MLM?

Yes, it is. It most definitely is multi level marketing. A Squared's comments are quite correct. He's challenged you to prove him incorrect...your response is to declare his lucid and logical analysis of what you're doing to be "sophmoric," and to provide nothing of substance but poorly written paragraphs and disjointed nonsensical sentence structure.

I have to say I regret posting here.

You should. It was inappropriate.

So, doubters, here's your free shot . . . flame away. You won't get an answer.

Looks like you blew that one...and hour and a half after you posted it. Anyone taking bets to see if you'll post again?

United First is not a financial institution, we sell software with coaching and customer service included.

Precisely. You're here selling something, not offering something, and what you're selling is a multi level marketed scheme where you get commissions off each person to whom yo sell...apparently in addition to the software and "coaching."

This is an aviation forum. This regards aviation exactly how??

 

[A Squared]

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . .

Right, of course there are extra payments. That is precisely my point, that's how your "system" works. I understand that, you understand that. I understand perfectly well how your "system" "works"

But your website sells it as something that cuts the time in half or a third without extra payments. which is obviously, by your tacit admission, a lie.


Allow me for the *third* time to quote your website:

The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.

That is a lie. period. So my question is, why would anyone buy a $3500 product of questionable value from someone who lies about what it does?

Something that is sold through the use of lies and misrepresentations is snake oil, and that is precisely what is going on here.

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money.

Man, you just can't not lie, can you?

"not made with your money"?????

You borrow money, that's your money, you have it, and you *owe* it, plus interest. Yet you describe as if you just get free money from someone to pay down your mortgage.

You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt.

Holy Crap!!!! you just just keep stacking lies on top of lies, don't you????

cheap debt to pay off expensive debt? you're paying off a *mortgage* with a *Home equitey line of credit*. All else being equal, a HELOC is more expensive debt than a mortgage. I did a little shopping this morning for mortgages and HELOC's. Here's what I found for my area, given the same credit rating: 30Yr fixed mortgage: about 5.5%. HELOC 7.5% Lowest was 7.2, most quotes were 7.7% or more) So what you're really doing is replacing cheaper debt with more expensive debt.


OK folks, let's count the lies so far:

1) The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.


Lie, a MM account works by substantially *increasing* what you're paying toward paying off your mortgage.


2)

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money.

That's a lie. If you borrow money, it is your money. You are responsible for paying it back and you pay for the use of it.

3)

You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt.

That's a lie, all else being equal, a HELOC is *more* expensive than a 30 year fixed rate mortgage.


So the question remains. Why would *anyone* in their right mind pay $3500 to someone who repeatedly lies about his product? You're gambling that everything *else* he says is honest, which at this point looks like a poor bet to me.


Old joke dusted off:

How do you tell if TOGA is lying?

His lips are moving. (His fingers are moving on his keyboard?)

 

[Swass]

A Squared - 1


TOGA - 0