How do I fly for a living when I can't afford it?

[A Squared]

Willfully writing a check for an actual, valuable product does not, in my book, constitute being scammed.

No, but willfully writing a check for a worthless product which has been fraudulently misrepresented does constitute being scammed, in anyone’s book.

Regarding your mathematical example . . . your math is so flawed, I can't even respond. I'd suggest going to www.BankRate.com, finding the 'additional payments' calculator, and working some of the math there. Your example shows a lack of understanding of compound interest, amortization, and the effect of additional principal payments.

Actually TOGA, I understand "compound interest, amortization, and the effect of additional principal payments" just fine, quite well in fact.

You're missing the point in referring me to using an "additional payments" calculator, your webpage says I can pay off a mortgage in 1/3 the time *without* increasing monthly payments, which is a lie, can't be done.

Actual quote:

The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.

Sure you can pay a mortgage off in 1/3 the time if you make additional payments. In fact I'm just about to close my own mortgage out in less than half the time, by making additional payments. Your website is selling a some magic you claim accomplishes that without additional payments.

So I say, put up or shut up. Take your magic program and compute up an example of how that's happens and post all the figures for everyone to see, what money goes where.

Here's the hypothetical: $200k Mortgage on a $250K house. 30 years at 5.5%, monthly payments are $1135. Just to keep it simple, let's say the HELOPC is at 5.5% too. so how us the series of 120 monthly (1/3 of 30 years) cash flows which pays off the mortgage and brings the HELOC to zero.

Shouldn’t be that hard, 120 sets of numbers which show money into and money out of the HELOC, balance of the HELOC and Mortgage, how much of each Mortgage payment is interest and principal.

You can't do it.

You won't even try, you'll slink off and hide under a rock like the snake oil salesman that you are.


Prove me wrong

 

[TOGA]

Oh, for crying out loud, man!! I thought you said you'd done some research on this. I thought you said you had some understanding of the math involved. OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money. That's the whole idea! You borrow the bank's money (HELoC), pay the mortgage down with it, then pay the HELoC back, then borrow the bank's money again, then pay it back again, etc, etc . . . 'til all the debt's gone. You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt. There's your freakin' "Snake Oil"! I'm sorry I didn't spell that out. Again, I thought you had the basic concept. If anyone wants to see your own numbers, or even theoretical ones, just fill out the analysis form on the website . . . no cost, no commitment. Ok, once and for all . . . "Snake Oil Salesman" signing off.

 

[avbug]

TOGA,

Are you familiar with the concept of the paragraph? Your writing reads like you're not. Thirty or forty sentences without a break is hard on the eyes...and leads one to gloss over whatever you're saying.

Then again, so does such non-sequitor concepts as...

Be careful your skepticism doesn't develop into full-blown cynicism. Do you trust that the mechanics have accomplished the work detailed in the logbook?

You're trying to draw a parallel between how one views your efforts to hawk your product, and the signatures in a logbook on an airplane? Are you suggesting that because one trusts a federally certificated mechanic performing a professional function, one should trust you selling your product? Are you familiar with the concept of apples and oranges?

The only way I make money is if an agent downline to me makes a sale AND I've made more total sales than they have. It costs $175 to become an agent. For this, you get all the marketing assistance you'll need, including the website you looked at. Is this MLM?

Yes, it is. It most definitely is multi level marketing. A Squared's comments are quite correct. He's challenged you to prove him incorrect...your response is to declare his lucid and logical analysis of what you're doing to be "sophmoric," and to provide nothing of substance but poorly written paragraphs and disjointed nonsensical sentence structure.

I have to say I regret posting here.

You should. It was inappropriate.

So, doubters, here's your free shot . . . flame away. You won't get an answer.

Looks like you blew that one...and hour and a half after you posted it. Anyone taking bets to see if you'll post again?

United First is not a financial institution, we sell software with coaching and customer service included.

Precisely. You're here selling something, not offering something, and what you're selling is a multi level marketed scheme where you get commissions off each person to whom yo sell...apparently in addition to the software and "coaching."

This is an aviation forum. This regards aviation exactly how??

 

[A Squared]

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . .

Right, of course there are extra payments. That is precisely my point, that's how your "system" works. I understand that, you understand that. I understand perfectly well how your "system" "works"

But your website sells it as something that cuts the time in half or a third without extra payments. which is obviously, by your tacit admission, a lie.


Allow me for the *third* time to quote your website:

The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.

That is a lie. period. So my question is, why would anyone buy a $3500 product of questionable value from someone who lies about what it does?

Something that is sold through the use of lies and misrepresentations is snake oil, and that is precisely what is going on here.

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money.

Man, you just can't not lie, can you?

"not made with your money"?????

You borrow money, that's your money, you have it, and you *owe* it, plus interest. Yet you describe as if you just get free money from someone to pay down your mortgage.

You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt.

Holy Crap!!!! you just just keep stacking lies on top of lies, don't you????

cheap debt to pay off expensive debt? you're paying off a *mortgage* with a *Home equitey line of credit*. All else being equal, a HELOC is more expensive debt than a mortgage. I did a little shopping this morning for mortgages and HELOC's. Here's what I found for my area, given the same credit rating: 30Yr fixed mortgage: about 5.5%. HELOC 7.5% Lowest was 7.2, most quotes were 7.7% or more) So what you're really doing is replacing cheaper debt with more expensive debt.


OK folks, let's count the lies so far:

1) The average Money Merge Account customer will pay their mortgage off 100%, in 1/2 to 1/3 the time, with little to no change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.


Lie, a MM account works by substantially *increasing* what you're paying toward paying off your mortgage.


2)

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . . they're just not made with your money.

That's a lie. If you borrow money, it is your money. You are responsible for paying it back and you pay for the use of it.

3)

You've leveraged cheap debt to pay off expensive debt.

That's a lie, all else being equal, a HELOC is *more* expensive than a 30 year fixed rate mortgage.


So the question remains. Why would *anyone* in their right mind pay $3500 to someone who repeatedly lies about his product? You're gambling that everything *else* he says is honest, which at this point looks like a poor bet to me.


Old joke dusted off:

How do you tell if TOGA is lying?

His lips are moving. (His fingers are moving on his keyboard?)

 

[Swass]

A Squared - 1


TOGA - 0

 

[WabiSabi]

So the question remains. Why would *anyone* in their right mind pay $3500 to someone who repeatedly lies about his product? You're gambling that everything *else* he says is honest, which at this point looks like a poor bet to me.

To add; Why pay said liar with a cashier's check and sign away your ability to stop payment? This is why you "upline's" policy doesn't take credit cards.

TOGA, you're like the actors these spoofs;
Here ya go!

and almost as funny!

P.S. My $100.00 offer is still good. Come on, considering that I can get Quicken for 60 bucks, it's a reasonable offer.

 

[TWA]

Toga-

If it's so simple, why do we need to spend $3500 on software to make it work. It is quite insulting that you do not believe we have the intelegence to make such a simple concept work on our own.

In other news-

A guy came on here to ask how to get paid to fly under his current set of circumstances. Let's help him out on here, and move the flogging of the scam artist over to the 'Non Aviation Forum'. Just a thought...

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Here's one for ya:

Years ago in NYC there was a flyer posted around many of the subway stations with claims of making extra $$$$ in your spare time. The flyer was perforated at the bottom with little address tabs to tear off.

The flyer asked that you send $5.00 to the address and instructions on how to make money in your spare time would be mailed out promptly.

Now $5.00 isn't a whole lot of money and if you're living check to check and need some extra income, you might send in $5.00 to see what this guy had in mind. What's $5.00 anyway?

Well, if you sent in that fee you were sure to get a reply in the mail. The reply basically said that all you need to do is do what he just did.

Kinda clever I think.


(and NO, I didn't send in $5 bucks - saw it in a news story.)

 

[rumpletumbler]

My current company is about to go under I think. They are in 'tax trouble' we've found out at the end of the year. They stopped taking out taxes/health insurance/child support of our checks at the end of December.

The owner keeps saying we will have a meeting but keeps putting it off. Peoples paychecks are bouncing. I was fussed at for cashing my paycheck last weekend (day after payday).

I may be available full time here shortly and have to work several jobs to stay afloat. I'd just like for flying to be at least two of them.

I'm going to get my medical renewed on the 13th.

BFR I'm going to start saving for after the medical.

 

[Swass]

Toga-

If it's so simple, why do we need to spend $3500 on software to make it work. It is quite insulting that you do not believe we have the intelegence to make such a simple concept work on our own.

In other news-

A guy came on here to ask how to get paid to fly under his current set of circumstances. Let's help him out on here, and move the flogging of the scam artist over to the 'Non Aviation Forum'. Just a thought...

Now that's rich.

 

[TWA]

Thanks for pointing that out Swass, I owe you one :beer:. I realized it about an hour after I posted it and was hoping no one would notice. Maybe I do need his software :smash:

 

[Swass]

Thanks for pointing that out Swass, I owe you one :beer:. I realized it about an hour after I posted it and was hoping no one would notice. Maybe I do need his software :smash:

Just bustin your balls. LOL

Have a good weekend

 

[A Squared]

Well, I'm avoiding doing other things that I'm supposed to be doing, so as a procrastination strategy, I'm taking a little time to flog the dead horse. Yeah, I know that it's been pretty well demonstrated that TOGA's little program is based on lies and is little more than a pyramid scheme for selling a worthless product, but I really despise liars like him who attempt to defraud folks who aren't comfortable enough with finance to see through the lies.


I hope that you all will indulge me this little horse flogging, if there's just one person out there who can't quite see why this is a scam, and this explanation makes it clearer to them, it's worth it.

So, since TOGA won't actually run some numbers on my hypothetical to show how his magic works (it doesn't) I took the time to do the calculations myself. I used the hypothetical example I proposed earlier. However, I used a more realistic interest rate for the HELOC. The idea that You can get a HELOC for lower interest than a home mortgage (all else being equal) is absurd. Generally speaking, a home mortgage is about the lowest interest rate a consumer can get from a bank for a loan. So I used a more realistic 7.5% for the HELOC, because TOGA finally conceded that you're actually making *extra* payments ( despite the lies on his website that you don't) I picked an arbitrary number of $1000/ month extra to pay down the balance on the HELOC.

You got a $200k, 30 year mortgage on a $250K house. The day you sign the mortgage papers, you run down to the bank and take out a $50K HELOC at 7.5%. You write a check against the line of credit to your mortgage company for $50K. That makes your principal to pay on your mortgage $150, and you begin paying the $1135 monthly payments on your mortgage, and $1000 a month to pay down the balance on the HELOC. It takes 5 years to pay off the $50K on the HELOC, at which point the remaining principle on your mortgage is $119,175 So, you write another $50K check to your mortgage company, which brings your principle down to $69,175, and it takes another 5 years to pay down the HELOC to zero, at which point your outstanding principle on your mortgage will have been paid down to $12,834 through your standard $1135 monthly payments. It will take you an additional 11 months to pay off that remaining principle, for a total of 11 years to pay off your mortgage.

Wow!!! Magic, just like TOGA said, EH?, pay it off in a little over 1/3 the time, whooooweee.

Yeah, except, if you didn't do the HELOC thingy, and you just put the extra $1000 the entire mortgage off in 10 years, not 11. (1/3 the time, not 1/3 the time plus another year) For a given additional monthly payment toward the principle, the HELOC actually lengthens the payoff time. Of course it does, you're shifting debt from a 5.5% loan to a 7.5% loan. You wind up paying *more* interest.

Now, if TOGA responds here, which I don't expect him to because I think even he can see that he's totally discredited here, He'll say "well, you don't just write 2 checks to pay off principal, you do it more frequently with smaller checks, reducing your mortgage principle sooner." Yeah, no doubt you do, but that is also *increasing* the money you owe at 7.5%, which isn't doing you any favors.

Bottom line; the more debt you transfer from your mortgage to your HELOC, the worse off you are, all else being equal.

For a given total monthly payment on your mortgage, the absolute best thing you can do is pay down your principle directly and skip the HELOC altogether.

The gimmick with the HELOC is that if you deposit your entire paycheck into the HELOC, then pay your bills by writing checks against the HELOC, you are in effect putting every cent you don't spend toward paying off the principle. But you could do effectively the same thing by just writing a check for every cent in your checking account to the mortgage company at the end of each month, and you'd pay off the mortgage faster than with the HELOC. (because you're not transferring debt from low interest (5.5%) to higher interest (7.5%).

Even if you could get a HELOC for the same rate as your mortgage (not going to happen), there would be almost no advantage to the HELOC. What little advantage you might gain, would be because you pay your paycheck in up front, and draw from the account, you're effectively paying the principle at the beginning of the month instead of the end. This might result in paying off the whole thing one (1) month sooner.


So; this is what you get from TOGA for $3500, advice to move debt from lower interest to higher interest which actually increases the time you need to pay off your mortgage, all else being equal.

 

[A Squared]

Hey, I think I saw the Horse twitch!

From previous posts by TOGA in other threads:

It's a way to pay off your mortgage at a greatly accelerated rate without ever paying any extra.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1379422#post1379422

Even if you don't have much discretionary income, you can pay off a 30 year mortgage in about eight to ten years with no out of pocket expense, no increase in monthly expenditures and a written guarantee.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=90082&page=2

Then when he gets called on it in this thread:

OBVIOUSLY extra payments are made . . .

So which is it TOGA?

You don't make extra payments or you do?

You're sounding kinda like Jon Lovitz here......yeah, that's the ticket!!!


Seriously, TOGA, how can you stand to look at yourself in the mirror when you shave? Can you even look your own reflection directly in the eye without being ashamed of what you are?

 

[rumpletumbler]

Any reason a class II medical won't work for employers for flight instructing? I realize you don't need more legally but I figured some employers might have other reasons (insurance) etc....to ask for a class 1.

I want to save the money on the EKG and just get the class II for now.

 

[avbug]

Rumpletumbler,

A second class medical will do just fine. In fact, you don't need a medical at all to flight instruct, so long as you're not acting as pilot in command. If you have a student qualified to act as PIC, you don't need a medical because when you instruct you're acting on your flight instructor certificate...not your pilot certificate.

When you do primary instruction, or teaching students who do not hold pilot certification, then you will be using the pilot certificate as well as the flight instructor certificate...and you'll need a medical to do that. It needn't be a first, or even second class for that matter...a third will do just fine...and if it's sport aircraft (see below)...you can do it with a driver's license in place of a medical.

Don't let anybody tell you differently; the regulation is clear, and is listed in excerpt below.

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—

(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—

(iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating or sport pilot rating, if the person is acting as pilot in command or is serving as a required flight crewmember;

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a valid medical certificate—

(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;


(6) When exercising the privileges of a ground instructor certificate;

(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a valid medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current and valid U.S. driver's license when exercising the privileges of—

(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating while acting as pilot in command or serving as a required flight crewmember of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon.


(2) A person using a current and valid U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must—


(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;


(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);


(iii) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and


(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Thanks Avbug. I knew about not needing the medical under certain circumstances but didn't understand it fully. As always you're helpful and informative. Thanks.

 

[Snakum]

I rarely come here anymore, but happened to see Rumple's post, and he and I have written a little over the years. I was darn near in the same boat at one time, with circumstances only a little different. But doors opened when least expected, and I found myself flying full-time last Summer after leaving a longtime employer. I was figuring on making $25K a year as an FO in in King Airs and Barons (Yes ... we had FOs on Barons) and moving up to Baron Capt. within 12 months (insurance reqs were outa sight) for about $30K.

But after all the struggle I finally decided that I needed my head examined to keep this up when I could be making $55-65K a year doing something I was good at and at least liked (IT). That was just me, not everyone throws in the towel. I guess I finally decided I didn't like it enough to risk everything for an iffy flying job (and they're almost all 'iffy' ... don't kid yourself). I decided I'd rather bang around on small singles from time to time and spend more time at home with family, and have money to build a life.

I wish you'd had the opportunity that I gave up, Rumple. I truly do. Cuz it seems you still have that fire. I don't. At 44 years old I've finally gotten over it and I must say ... it ain't too bad. I still linger a little too long at the flight deck door when I fly commercial. But I made my choice ... I'm content.

Everyone has to decide when enough is enough. Don't be afraid to make that choice. Weigh it ... pick a horse and ride. Best of luck to you Rumple!

 

[rumpletumbler]

I got my medical last week. I have to save and get a headset now and BFR.

 

[look4traffic]

If you are in the Atlanta area Falcon Aviation Academy says on their website they are hiring instructors. Maybe something to check out if you decide to instruct full time. Good luck.