How do I figure time to log from Tach?

[rcb]

I've got a lot of flights where I have the Tach times (this is a 182) but the Hobbes is borked (shows LESS time than the Tach). So how should I log that?

I was trying to figure out how much to log with the flights below.
First number is Tech, second is time from engine start to shutdown via stopwatch.

1.8 Tach 2:00 stopwatch
.44 " :35 "
.92 " 1:15 "

and a 1.47 Tach, 1:27 t/o to taxi.

So, I figure adding .2 was probably about right? In total, I have 19.3 hours of Tach with 21.3 logged flight time. 18 flights. Adding .2 in that case doesn't seem like enough. 18*.2=3.6, wo that would give me 22.9 total logged via that formula.

On a related note, seems like I've always logged Hobbes time even though that's really not 'flight time' per the definition. (Ok, flight time is usually only slightly less than Hobbes. Say, .05 per flight but it adds up.)

Opinions? This may seem silly but I try and keep my logbook very truthfully. Which means of course my time building is taking a lot longer.

I'm loving logbook pro, it uncovered a few minor mistakes in my first logbook I just finished....

 

[ShawnC]

Hobbs is the generally accepted way to log time.

When no Hobbs is available the most accepted way to log ( and charge) is to multiply tach by 1.2

 

[katanabob]

You have to be careful about where the Hobbs came from. (or not, I guess) We have installed, removed, and replaced many a Hobbs meter in the course of everyday maintenance and annuals at our shop, and while about half are turned on and off by an oil pressure switch the rest have some pretty 'creative' methods for actuation. Some are just hotwired to the master bus, avionics bus, or alternator field lines. Some have little tabs on the outside of the airplane which turn the meter on only when a certain airspeed is exceeded. (very few of these at FBOs; they want to rape you for every cent)

 

[ShawnC]

Master Switch...

The twin at one of the FBOs around here, has the hobbs hooked up into the master switch. One creative student would turn the master on, and go on twin cross countries. It lasted a little while until a student noticed that the beacon was on, they got busted.

 

[AutoTransfer]

Another Option is to record your Engine Start and Engine Stop times on your kneeboard or whatever you use to record ATIS, clearances, and such. This gives you an exact representation of your flight time in the event of an inaccurate hobbs reading. Just a thought.

Clear Skies (or 200 and 1/2 if thats your bag, baby),
AutoTransfer

 

[TDTURBO]

Re: Master Switch...

The twin at one of the FBOs around here, has the hobbs hooked up into the master switch. One creative student would turn the master on, and go on twin cross countries. It lasted a little while until a student noticed that the beacon was on, they got busted.

I don't get it, if anything I would think he would fly with the master off and not leave it on when parked. Since the beacon light was on, the master was on and since the hobbs is wired directly to the master it would be running also.

 

[YODA]

If your question is regarding flight time, under FAR part 1.1 Flight time means: (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing. ie. Mark the time you release brakes to roll, and mark your time you come to a stop after landing. That is your logged flight time.

 

[ShawnC]

I don't know why. He was logging time, paying for it, without flying it.

 

[tarp]

Original question:

I've seen folks use 1.2, 1.25 and 1.3 as conversion factors (tach to hobbs). You have to remember that a "tach hour" is an hour with the engine running at rated power. So, if you go out in a C-172, spend 5 minutes taxiing and running up and then go for a 3 hour X-C with the engine pushing as hard as it can, then the ratio is almost 1:1. But if you spend an hour in the rented C-172 doing pattern work and taxiing back around for a few takeoffs instead of doing touch and go's, then your ratio will soar (1.4:1).

To ShaunC:

You mean some one went out to a plane sitting on the tarmac, turned on the master switch and let the hobbs run so that they could log time without flying the time???? (And they paid for this rental time?) Where are those Darwin award people when you need them?

I've heard of students getting booted out of planes and clubs for firing them up, climbing to altitude and then "proving" that the plane's engine can run just fine with the master turned off. The hobbs would stop running and the person would do say an hour and a half of flying while paying for only an hour. Of course, the reality that you have no alternator, no transponder, no lights, no radios might be a deterent for the more sane pilots in the world.

Of course the most favorite "money saver" is the rental of the Seminole where on taxi back to the FBO, the brain surgeons decide to shut down the engine with the hobbs meter. Funny how that only gets tested once when you immediately find out how hard it is to taxi a Seminole on one engine. (Works if all the turns are in one direction, but not if you need to make turns both left and right!)

 

[TDTURBO]

Shawn,

I would not have used the term, "creative", maybe infinitely stupid but not creative. If he had half a brain, he could have just logged some pencil time or padded his hours but to pay for twin time and not fly it is beyond comprehension! Are you sure he didn't accidentally just leave the master on? If not, that has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard!

 

[ShawnC]

The word creative was dripping with sarcasim. And yes it was real they got busted, all their tickets were pulled (there were like 2 or 3 people in on it) at least thats what I heard about the results.

As far as Darwin, well they are alive and are able to procreate so unfortunately they need to die with out spawning to get a child (I think there is a clause if the father and child die in the same accident).

 

[MTOP_set]

log per the FAR

YODA has it right. No where in the regs does it say to log time by the hobbs or by the tach. These methods are accepted because you are paying for the time. I would hesitate at any "conversion factors". If you feel that the hobbs or tach is less than the definition in FAR 1.1 then use that.

ps. The time will come, I think you will find that if you use a method that you can point to in the book, your professionalism will be acknowledged.

 

[AutoTransfer]

The FAR YODA quoted regarding Flight Time is accurate:
Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing
However I believe the interpretation is incorrect.


Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight
--Flight time would begin the minute you start taxiing the aircraft for the purpose of flight, even before the takeoff roll.

and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing
--Flight time would end the minute you stop taxiing the aircraft after the flight is concluded.

This may be splitting hairs and if anyone would like to add or detract from my interpretation, I'd love to hear it.

Again, I record the time when I start the engine and when I shut it down. Unless you like to spend a whole lot of time and money idling on the ramp, this is usually pretty accurate.

 

[rcbullock]

..more...

I know what the total engine run time was on a few flights, and on others, I have no idea as to time except for the Tach.

Therefore I have to make an educated guess. Multiplying times 1.2 is too much for my particular plane, seems like adding .2 or .25 to each is about right.

At any rate, they replaced my Hobbes on my fresh $6800 (owwwww) annual, so it will be moot from now on.

I know the definition, and you can split hairs, but I'd say the vast majority of people log Hobbes, even though technically the flight time should always be less. Do you crank and immediately begin taxi or flip the master on then immediately taxi? Nope.

Plus, when you start the engine, the plane does begin to 'move' for the purpose of flight, the prop goes around, the pistons go up and down etc.

I was just looking for a generally accepted method, and the multiplying the tach seems like a good rule of thumb. I'm sure a few hours at most will come out in the wash later. Or who knows, may already have.

We're talking a max diff of maybe 5 hours, probably more like 3-4 hours total.

If some company on an interview has a problem with that and my best guess I'm pretty sure I don't want to work there, they probably count the squares of TP in the lav too.

 

[surfnole]

I've heard of students getting booted out of planes and clubs for firing them up, climbing to altitude and then "proving" that the plane's engine can run just fine with the master turned off. The hobbs would stop running and the person would do say an hour and a half of flying while paying for only an hour. Of course, the reality that you have no alternator, no transponder, no lights, no radios might be a deterent for the more sane pilots in the world

Thats why I like this board...I always learn new things! What a novel idea. I am in a club and we use tach time, so I have not spent much time thinking about this.

If you are on a long cross country during the day in the middle of nowhere, do you really need a radio, transponder and lights? 40 years ago you had none of those things anyway. You would also lose your turn coordinator too...but...its a thought. Whats the down side to turning off the alternator for a while? I suppose the battery would slowly drain from any electrical equipment accidentally left on.

The FBO should be able to catch this based on their fuel receipts. How the h*** did he burn 30 gallons of gas in one hour? A devious person could just fill up along the way.

Its an interesting thought, but I'm too honest to try and pull it off.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>reality that you have no alternator, no transponder, no lights, no radios might be a deterent for the more sane pilots in the world.


Hmmm, I've flown a few planes with no alternator, transponder, lights or radios. I did some of my private training in a luscome with no electrical system. It's fun, not insane


>>>>>>>You would also lose your turn coordinator too...but...its a thought.

Umm yeah, but do you really need a turn coordinator on a VFR flight? (i'm assuming they aren't turning the master off on IFR cross countries)
I used to give tailwheel checkouts in a Citabria with no gyros. I was constantly amazed at how many pilots couldn't keep the wings level without an attitude indicator .... folks, your primary flight instrument in VFR is your windshield

Shawn,

I have to admit, I just don't get it .... we're in aviation because it's fun, right? I suppose I could see trying to fly time you didn't pay for (understand, not agree with) but paying for time you didn't fly???? I'm scratching my head here. Oh well......


BTW, Most FBO's I've rented from kept track of both hobbs and tach time in the logs. THat would make it easy to catch those who were shutting off the hobbs to get free flying, and those who were running the master to run the hobbs on the ground..... for whatever reason

regards

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

However, that devious person who decides to fill up with gas before coming in to hide that extra gas used will end up spending just as much probably as he would to honestly pay that 30 mins of flight time that he is trying to cheat the FBO out of, so in a sense it wouldnt matter. If an FBO keeps good aircraft records, I think they would figure it out eventually.

 

[rcb]

I got the new Hobbes put in, and times are

.51 Tach .7 Hobbes
.52 Tach .9 Hobbes

Looks like adding .3 to each tach would give me the 1.6 total, so I'll fly a little more and see what happens. Looks like adding .3 so far would work.

Has anyone ever heard of any anal retentives having a problem with logging Hobbes vs. actual 'flight time' as defined in FAR part 1?

 

[MSNFlier]

a timex triathalon watch...

will solve this issue, period. Buy a $29.99 Timex Triathalon digital watch at Wally-World or Walgreens and just time it that way.

Fly safe!!!

 

[rcbullock]

And a time machine so I can go back and time those first flights or the ones where I forgot to hack my watch.

Which should I get, the newer ones powered by a quantum singularity or the older (but more reliable) ones with reverse fusion anti-matter reaction battery? What about the optional 'mutate' capacity?

Those are going for just over 10K on Ebay right now due to all the hard radiation they put out. Man, that lead suit is ITCHY.

I hear the ones made in the M589 colonies are the best, if you can find one this far out on the rim.