How did it go so wrong, so fast ?

[netjetwife]

Lots of Misunderstanding in your letter

Xrated, you are mis-stating my position. I NEVER said he deserves more because of those things--DFC, etc Absolutely, my friends husbands at NetJets deserve the same pay for the same job, just about all are underpaid there. I have posted that the ENTIRE TA is flawed across the board, is considered regressive in almost all areas and has serious QOL problems. I discussed money more because the posts that I replied to focused on it. The language in the contract that opens the door to a pilot being disciplned by what is found on the CVR is BAD NEWS for the whole industry, as is expecting a pilot to do part of the Recurrent Training at home for FREE. I do not consider making pilots be available by 2pm on their last day off to be really having the whole day off. There are many more, but I this should give you the idea.

I am NOT saying the decision was bad. It was a calculated risk that may well pay off. The money is there. Once again, you have misdiagnosed me. The frustration is because of corporate greed. I do NOT admire Warren Buffet. I do recognize his business acumen, but have no respect for how his employees are treated. Other successful businessmen do a better job of rewarding those who help build the business. I gave Michael Dell as an example. The shareholders are all pleased that NetJets is getting ready to make it big. The investments in the business are just starting to really take off. NJAmerica has been carrying NJEurope while they got it started. That's where the pilots' raises have gone. Now time to invest in the pilots, themselves. Wages are a cost of doing business--pay the pilots the industry average, at least. My internet research--that anyone could do--says that the fractional industry will keep growing, in light of terrorism and increased hassles/delays in airports that is a logical conclusion. All of the pilots in the business should want to see the NetJets pilots get a good contract, and raise the bar for all of them.

I posted earlier that he may not stay in aviation at all. His resume speaks for itself--no one has ever gotten him a job. If he did choose to keep flying, his friends would be happy to recommend him because he's a great pilot AND a really nice guy. He'd not like it any better than you that I bragged on him---though, I was more trying to establish the level of quality NetJets is getting from him as a pilot/instructor/diplomat to their wealthy owners...all for chump change. He helped the company to grow, now it is time for them to make good on their promise to ALL of the pilots. The MEC has been telling the pilots for a year that "Kick-Ass" pay was going to be theirs....industry leading contract...great scope clause, improved work rules, etc. Their own union leaders sold them out---more frustration, there. ALL of the wives are upset.

I think you're being a little harsh. Comments about my husband's talent, etc were scattered throughout several long posts. It is sad and ironic that in trying to establish his credibility, you say I hurt it. I am guilty of having a wife's pride , not of "ranting". The Academy references were necessary to help explain not being able to go to JetBlue. That perplexed many. I compared flying for the majors to point out that he works harder than he did there, but likes it BETTER flying the Excel. That was not bragging and/or putting down fractional pilots. He tells me they work harder and have much more responsibility.

Are you by any chance an ex-military pilot yourself? I know that in the AF there was a problem of jealousy between the "heavies" and fighters. Perhaps some of that colored your response to my posts? Whatever the reason, it is something I'll keep in mind should I ever post on an aviation board again. Once more, my husband NEVER talks about his military flying. And he certainly doesn't piss people off, as you insinuated. Do you have something against officers--or is it just wives that "wear their husbands rank"? You're really wrong about us, on both counts.

The coming months should be very interesting, I hope that you'll be pulling for ALL of the pilots at NetJets and their families. Good Luck in your career and best wishes to your wife and children--it's a tough lifestyle.
LaVonn

 

[slowto250]

You go girl !

To Netjetwife,
I know you must feel foolish having to defend your obvious pride and adulation for a husband whose qualifications speak volumes about his character and skill. Please don't. Our industry (professional flying), has suffered through a very lengthy dowturn. The cycle, I believe, has recently reached bottom, and will rebound in the next several years. Tell hubby to keep the faith. Having endured the anti-union genius of Frank Lorenzo (aviation's anti-christ), I can honestly say that there is life after scheduled carrier employment. Do I have one of those cush corporate jobs, with more time off than I know what to do with ? No. However, I now make @ twice what I did as a 4 year EAL F/O, while working about the same number of days per month. Sure do miss those B scale wages ! Hang in there.

 

[netjetwife]

You've restored my faith, sir.

Slowto250, thanks for the kind words and support, both of which are in short supply around here sometimes--or so it seems. Part of my problem is in making the transition from the military-flying culture to the civilian-flying world. Posting on this board has certainly been a learning experience! Best Wishes, LaVonn

 

[DrRaptor]

I also lend my support to everyone and echo the comments that things are getting better.

I know a lot of people speak down of Air Tahoma on these boards, but the new pay structure that Noel put in place only a scant few months ago measurably improved the base pay, and made it possible for first-year FO's on both our CV-580 and CV-240 to make pretty decent money compared to other airline if they're willing to put in the time (20-22 days a month on duty, but not necessarily flying), which puts us 3 of 6 compared to the 5 other airlines that I have numbers for who fly similar sized aircraft (ATR, DASH-8) on the high end of their pay potential, and 5 of 6 on the low end of the pay potential, but still much better than at airlines flying aircraft smaller than ours.

Things are starting to improve on the smaller end of the spectrum while the high end is unfortunately having to deal with the problems with mis-management and overflow from the "boom years" in the 1990s when too many people (individuals and groups) tried to keep things high when things got lean. But it's not just in the US that these problems exist. It's happening all over the World, and hopefully we'll see a few years of problems at the top, everything sort itself out, and then be back to better times with the pay getting to where it should be.

 

[Cardinal]

the ENTIRE TA is flawed across the board, is considered regressive in almost all areas and has serious QOL problems. . . The language in the contract that opens the door to a pilot being disciplned by what is found on the CVR is BAD NEWS for the whole industry

If only more pilots had this kind of intelligent, informed support at home. Heck, the industry would be better if the pilot's themselves had similar backbone, and awareness of precedent setting issues. This is a wife that can help raise the bar. Kudos to netjetwife.

 

[Hawkered]

No this is someone who should have planned her family's retirement away from the vagaries of commercial aviation. She should have also learned to budget and not spend all her time at the O.C.

 

[TORCH67]

Hawkered for MEC chairman!!! Please post your name so that we can vote for someone with such vision and understanding. Sorry, forgot you dont get involved with antiquated organizations. Let us know when you get that view of the Atlantic ocean that you talk about. My guess is that it will be from somewhere within 90 miles of Sewark NJ.

NetJetswife is passionate and proactive. You may not agree with her views, but don't stifle her motivation. Netjets pilots just want to be paid a fair wage for a fair days work. Remember as emoitional as it gets, it's just business. Vote what you feel you can accept, work hard and don't lower your standards. The owners pay their Mgmt fees and hourly fees just like their contracts say. We need to deliver the same service that we agreed to when we hired on. If you can't do that then it's time to move on to a new job. This fight is not with the owners!!!! I love the flying we do at Netjets, and hope to do it for a long time. I also hope that I can get paid enough to support my family the way I hope. When those two don't meet I will move on.

Bottom line, be civil and respect other peoples views.

P.S. This post was checked for illegal and terrorist like statements. It was found to be safe and non-threatening.

 

[netjetwife]

Sometimes to raise the bar you have to raise your voice.

Hawkered, are you not able to discuss the ISSUES without resorting to personal insults? I complain about the low pay that FOs receive as being unjust for ALL in that position. Lack of job security, CVR used for discipline language, and work rules that make a difficult job near unbearable, are contract problems that NO pilot should be subjected to. There are inequities in the industry and I firmly believe in EVERYONE affected taking an active role in improving the situation for ALL pilots--and their families.

Our oldest son started college this year, paid for w/savings from the AF career. It is much harder now to save for his brother's and sister's education, but a professional pilot OUGHT to be able to provide for his children's education--where ever he works. My complaints about the pay are for all pilots' families and are not always a reflection of my family's financial situation, alone. I am privvy to the struggle faced by many other families and my statements are based on that knowledge .

Your derogatory comments regarding officers' wives are an insult to all military families past and present, who have sacrificed much in the service of our country.

Cardinal and DrRaptor, thank you for your support and recognition of the role played by the wives, who back their husbands 100% in their endeavors to achieve fairness in the workplace.

 

[Hawkered]

Okay, Netjet Wife. I promised quite a few people to stop being mean on these message boards so here is my first attempt.

First of all, I am very grateful for the efforts of your husband and those who have served in the most rcent conflicts as well. I do not agree with John Kerry about anything and would fund the military better and have served the present theater with at least an extra 100,000 troops. I am well aware of sacrifice, I grew up without a father due to military service and his being a POW. (The Kerry stickers and posters at he union hall make me boil.)

Your husband does deserve better. We all deserve better.


I have a three-fold problem here.

1) Non members logging on to the union message board.

2) An MEC that promised so much and delivered so little.

3) A union that allowed a bunch of Eastern scabs to get employment and membership here.


You talk about character and I'm sure you and your entire family have it in boat loads. The problem is, as X-rated has already stated, that many people paid for their jobs here in the first place.

Your first class seats at American became empty when the price of a private jet became unrealistically low. We now have consumers of this product with caviar tastes hoping to consume at fast-food prices.

Figure this simple model:

Pay for training:

$8,500

Hotels

$2000

First year salary:

$28,000 minus $10,500, or $17,500.

That was the perceived value of our expertise by the bean counters.

"I have met the enemy, the enemy is us".

 

[Hawkered]

Hey Torch,

Yepper, I'll be pulling up my new yacht here shortly as soon as I get those kick backs that the company promised me, arrive. Let's get that conspiracy theory rolling, huh?

If we go in-house I might consider it!

 

[netjetwife]

Okay, Netjet Wife. I promised quite a few people to stop being mean on these message boards so here is my first attempt."

Sticking to the ISSUES--thank you. NJW


1) Non members logging on to the union message board.

2) An MEC that promised so much and delivered so little.

3) A union that allowed a bunch of Eastern scabs to get employment and membership here.



" Your first class seats at American became empty when the price of a private jet became unrealistically low. We now have consumers of this product with caviar tastes hoping to consume at fast-food prices."


I would add that 9-11 had much to do with it. Worries over security and the desire to avoid hassles and waste of time encountered in airline flying has caused those that CAN afford it to seek alternative transportation that is considered to be a value in comparison because of the increase in security and convenience.


"$28,000 minus $10,500, or $17,500.

That was the perceived value of our expertise by the bean counters.

"I have met the enemy, the enemy is us".

My answers: to #1---Wives were INVITED to post on the board and join in a discussion of the issues that are affecting THEM directly. Moreover, for a long time many of us have been reading the board and posting for our husbands when they are on tour and don't have access to the board. My guy considers the $10 hotel fee for internet a luxury we don't budget for. Many other couples do the same thing. A number of us are volunteers for SU and need to communicate w/pilots in that capacity, myself included. Families make a huge sacrifice --spouses and children--in order for pilots to be gone from home half the month. Why deny them the right to comment on issues that impact their lives every day? Again, the vast majority of couples see employment of either partner as a joint decision. You cannot make informed judgements without access to the information.

#2--MEC M onstrously E gotistical C on-artists! DUMP THEM
#3--Eastern pilots---An area that spouses aren't involved with. PAY not personalities, concerns me. All other aspects of the TA, as well.


As to the mention of the airlines vs fractional flying--- I would add that 9-11 had much to do with it. Worries over security and the desire to avoid hassles and waste of time encountered in airline flying has caused those that CAN afford it to seek alternative transportation that is considered to be a VALUE in comparison because of the increase in security and convenience.

Regarding training costs, current pay, and "worth".----

There are industry average payscales to consult, and NJA pilots' salaries are NOT comparing favorably, esp. considering that they fly for the #1 company but are paid below industry average. Profit sharing, under the TA, is a JOKE!
ON $123 MILLION IN NET PROFITS, YOU WILL GET A CHECK FOR $41.67!!

Many companies, in AND out of aviation, invest in their most important assest--their employees. I used my brother-in-law, employeed by Dell Computers,as an example, in a previous post. Dell paid for his college education and various seminars around the country and after 10 yrs of valued service are rewarding him with a 6 figure salary. When I told Richard that I'd used him as an example of companies that reward employees that help to build the business, his response was---

"You should have mentioned the other benefits like bonus > $20K and stock options >$500K and 401K > $300K" Note: Richard is a team leader, not upper management.

 

[Hawkered]

Netjet Wife,

Sadly, the airlines were in a great deal of trouble well before 9/11.They were already holding each others heads under the water and were almost at breaking point.

9/11 is a great excuse for decades of a broken airline model using aging aircraft, a labor intensive hub and spoke system and multiple aircraft types, not to mention exorbitant executive salaries. Time is a precious commodity, it's why the Citation X depreciates so much slower than other aircraft types and it's the reason we all have cell phones and the internet.

In aviation the factory moves at 500 mph, yet people don't see the importance of having a bright and reactive response at the helm. You probably do see that importance, because it is primary to your husbands training in the air force.

Since 1983, 146 airlines have gone through bankruptcy. Only America West has been able not to return to the same protection it provided, (chapter 11).

I have been flying for 21 years. I have seen the stupidity of management, the stupidity of union leadership and, sadly, even the stupidity of aircrew. All of these things had something in common: bad leadership.

One must often wonder whether Donald Carty was smoking crack when he agreed to purchase TWA. He was eventually fired by his own workers, but he nearly drove American off a cliff!

Okay, now back to Netjets:

You want us to vote no. Alright, then what? We go to war with the second richest man in the world who just lost his wife, (she told him to buy us, by the way), then we go back to the negotiation table, thrash it out for another six months, it all becomes even more unsightly, then.....what?

My bet is that he'll wake up one morning and say to himself, what he did years ago with USAir. "To hell with it, I'm out." (No I do not know that those were his exact words, but he sold his stake).

Then what?

The military is an enormous adjustment. You have a whole mindset change, a paradigm shift of value. It's the same when you leave. My guess is that you still haven't really "left".

Your husband is a great airman, it's a given, but what you don't seem to be able to accept is that regional airlines are replacing his type right now with Purdue graduates with less than 500 hours. They did not go through an exhaustive selection process, nor did they go through any elimination process if they were bad in training. Their parents just put up more cash to get them through and the end result is viewed the same by most commercial entities.

Netjets runs the same on days that I am at work or days that I am off. They don't need me at all. It's a hard reality, but it's true!

Good luck, I'm sorry I got so mad at you. You're obviously a very courageous person with a whole bunch of integrity.

See the world for what it is. Good luck trying to change it!

 

[netjetwife]

The Hawk and the Wife have found common ground.

Yes the airlines used 9-11 to rearrange their business plan, switching to an emphasis on regional planes/routes, and laying off many pilots in the process. My husband explained that whole scheme to me. We were disgusted at the plan to save already outrageous executive packages at AA while laying off pilots and forcing others to take pay cuts. My husband remarked just last night about what an asinine decision it was to buy TWA, while we were discussing the weak scope clause in the TA.

Absolutely, we see the need for strong leadership--the lack thereof, explains the mess we're in today! My husband complains bitterly about the "lack of vision" in the TA. He is volunteering his time and energy to help the new leaders get ready to assume command of the helm. I have watched him lead many pilots and enlisted folks and I trust his ability to recognize good leadership in others.

NetJets has offered a fatally flawed contract that must be scrapped. I've learned thru extensive remodeling projects that you can't paper over rotted walls or build on weak joists. It often does look worse before it gets better, but in the long run you have saved much money, labor and time by getting it right before you go forward. The final product has always been one that we were proud of and that would last. The fight for a fair contract fits the same approach. In their 2003 Berkshire-Hathaway Annual meeting, Buffet and Munger (sp?), his right hand man/partner bragged about NJA shaking out the competition and becoming a much bigger business...up to 10 times was WB's assessment. He also expressed great confidence in his partner, so I'd bet that CM could pick up the slack if WB is distracted by his grief. Additionally, the rapid expansion of NJ all around the world, shows a strong belief in the business itself.

NetJets DOES NEED YOU and all of the other experienced pilots. They have made a big selling point of the fact that they hire only the best, most experienced pilots. You guys are given TOP BILLING in company publications while offered subpar wages. They do WANT good pilots. It's up to the pilots (with support from their wives.....) to make them pay for the image they so constantly promote. Just imagine the outcry that would ensue if there was an accident because of pilot-error due to inexperience. That very thing is not uncommon in aviation. At the prices charged to the owners, they have every right to expect that they are safe from that experience. How much can NJA lower the standards without damaging their stellar reputation?

Bringing lessons learned from the military, be it how to organize families into a support/social group (me) or applying flying experience gained thru the AF (my husband) does NOT mean that we are living in the past. I am very involved in the NJW Club, not the OWC. In fact we stopped our O'Club membership/dues because we never go there anymore. The next function on my mind is a Pot Luck Dinner for our gateway families. Which reminds me that I have a flyer to design and email out to our Colorado families.

Have faith, Hawkered, I believe that our goal of a good, fair contract will be realized in the end. IF (very big if) not, we will move on like many other NJ families to something else. Either way, my husband and I will know that we did our part and will have no regrets about the role we played in this fight.


I am glad that we have reached an understanding. Now, more than ever, we ALL need to pull together.
LB/NJW

 

[Hawkered]

Last post.

NJ Wife and all,

It is time for me to get back to my "normal" life outside and away from this industry and this computer. This is my last post.

I still believe it is possible to vote yes, and watch what unfolds. The leadership of the union is toast. The T/A might make it through, it probably will if the company plays another trump card... a promise of open enrollment.

The union has pissed off enough people that the United Health Care program alone is enough of a vote for change.

We have all endured hardship, I know what it means to not see a loved one for seven months while being OS. The system needs to be changed. Strong Union might provide answers but not miracles. The answers might be the same ones we've already been told.

There are no guarantees. Some of you believe that the existing T/A is a guarantee if we go back to the table-it's not. All bets are off where we could end up!

A good gambler does not gamble more than he/she can afford to lose.

Farewell all, it's time for me to sit down.

 

[netjetwife]

Say it isn't so Hawkered!

It saddens me to "hear" that you will wind up on the wrong side of history, Hawkered, esp. when it seems as though your instincts are telling you otherwise. Word among those that are working the phones, is that the TA is doomed. It doesn't matter what the company does---how much make-up they put on this pig--everyone can see that it's still a PIG! Many, many families are voting to roll the dice. My professional negotiator friend tells me that the only 1st offers ever accepted are those that are truly win/win situations. We all know this TA is slanted overwhelmingly in the company's favor. AD also assures me that going back to the table brings increasingly better offers until fairness is achieved. We have a wife in our group that is a FA and the president of her MEC. She thinks the contract is pathetic and wholeheartedly supports fighting for more, based on her own experience w/the process. Additionally, we have a wife w/corporate management experience that has run the numbers for our group and shown what a joke the profit sharing is, and how unbalanced the distribution of labor funds is at the company. Pilots are 45% of total workers at NJA, but receive ONLY 25% of the money for wages, while the other 55% are getting 75% of available dollars. How can you possibly vote for that? On top of that insult, comes unfair work rules, CVR used for discipline, and serious possibilities of a job loss due to a bad scope clause.

Please consider standing with those who share your concerns, rather than the management that holds their pilotforce in low regard and a failed MEC that never bothered to ask the membership what they wanted.
NetJet Wife---just one of many voting NO to the TA
and YES for StrongUnion and a better future!