How did it go so wrong, so fast ?

[Schrode]

I can not believe what I read when I see pilots ripping other pilots about pay and union issues. Look around guys, the whole industry is falling apart - but be real, it is not because the pilot is paid too much!

The cost of operating a multi-million dollar jet includes the money paid to a pilot - any pilot. But yet companies will let you believe that this is a major factor - two $100K/per year pilots . . . The annual cost per year is say $150K, for training, salaries and benifits per pilot, per aircraft. At NetJets we operate 5 crewmembers per aircraft so that comes to $750K per year per aircraft. An Ultra - the smallest in the fleet - charges about $10K a month to each owner per month for operational charges . . . $120K per year - up to 16 owners per aircraft comes to a cool $1,920,000 per aircraft for "management costs" only - there is a per hour cost as well. Now, granted every aircraft will not have 16 owners, but even with the minimum of 8 per aircraft the revenue is $960K.

Most here at NetJets are not saying EVERY Ultra pilot sould make a $100K or more, but when we are told our company can't afford it - we are insulted. A 5 year Captain should make a little more than $69K a year - especially when required to live in 5 of the most expensive places in the United States.

I am not crying because my pay is too low, I am not crying because I work too hard. My complaint is my Company promised to treat me as a professional aviatior, then compensate me like a private pilot. They say they have to, they don't have the money, yet they charge more than any other fractional, almost as much as a charter, but pay the least. Berkshire Hathaway says we are the most finacially secure aviation company in the world - yet they pay the pilots well below what they should.

Now go ahead, say "what did you expect, flying fractional . . ." My answer to this is: I expect to be paid a living wage. $42K in Los Angeles (where I live) is not a living wage. My kids qualify for reduced lunch at school. Pathetic. I work too hard to deserve this. Why don't I leave? I will. You can come to work here, fly these broken down planes for a while and go broke too.

 

[xrated]

? Now how exactly is my job flying frax any better?

Well in prison there is the painful anal rape experience.....oh, sorry, you work for Netjets. Geez, I guess prison is better!

 

[wingnutt]

to add to what schrode said...

for whatever reason i just recently saw a quote from netjets for a multi-point europe charter across the atlantic. the interesting part (besides the flight time fees) was the additional crew related expenses. they were lined out as

• crew expenses
• overnights
• extra crew overnights
• crew airlines
• and crew misc

the total for the trip was well over 100K (closer to 150K) with fuel variables, intl fees, and landings included. but the additional ~15,000 in crew related expenses is what caught my attention...and this is just one trip. hell, isnt that enough to cover f/o pay for 1/2 the year

 

[netjetwife]

That was then, this is now.

I
The NJA union is a joke. I would not bet on it but I suspect the TA will pass by a narrow margin and here we are off to the races.

WRONG! We have new leaders that are already working to fix the mess from the current MEC. Families are involved and actively working together to defeat the TA, which is commonly referred to as the POS TA by the REAL union---the pilots and their families. The groundswell can not be silenced--the backlash is very strong. Take my word for it, this POS TA IS DOA!

 

[netjetwife]

additional ~15,000 in crew related expenses is what caught my attention...and this is just one trip. hell, isnt that enough to cover f/o pay for 1/2 the year

It covers my husband's salary for 1/2 the year....actually he made only 14,000. Working 70 hrs a week, many times 14 hrs a day, all so that our son can also get the reduced price lunch reserved for the poor kids at school. The wives have now formed a group to fight against this exploitation. We are standing up for our families, working the phones, and supporting our professional-pilot, husbands 100% in their demand for fair wages that reflect their contribution to the success of NetJets.

 

[Publishers]

industry

There is an irony here in that without the growth of fractionals, pilot employment at all would have been horrendous for the last 5 years. Pilot pay and what the new deal will be is yet to be determined, not at Netjets but in the business of flying aircraft in general.

There has been too much of a gap between the low and high side of pilot jobs and the adjustment will be painful. Frankly, the high side has been out of proportion with other positions. Unfortunately the fact that much of the major side of the industry is union and it takes forever for these adjustments to work out.

 

[netjetwife]

Wide pay gaps are divisive.

I definitely agree, and experienced this firsthand when my husband was laid off from AA right after 9-11. He declined to go into the Eagle side of the airline not only because of the lower pay (he'd just recently completed training), but also because he was hearing that the Eagle pilots didn't want the regular AA guys there--too many hard feelings over the wide pay gap. We understood that. Flying is flying---are you any more careful when you have 100 passengers as opposed to 10? In his current position as Excel FO at NJets, an increase in px DOES make my husband's job harder. He has more baggage to load, more catering to deliver, and a larger mess to clean up after the flight! The wide pay disparity between FOs and Captains disturbs me as well, esp at NJets where the FO is typed as a Cpt, too. I, too, think that it would be good for all pilots across the board, if the gaps in pay were narrowed. Without a doubt, it would be much better for all the wives and children out there!

 

[Publishers]

wives and children

That would be great if this was about women and children but the last time I looked, it was not.

What is true is that many of the people bitching on these sites would not even have been employed flying this type equipment without the fractionals. What is true is that if these companies had not entered the business and tried to do their schedules in an organized structure like airlines, you would have a bunch of corporate pilots negotiating their own deals and finding the market pretty tough.

Frankly in corporate flying, the things you mention that are so hard are part of the every day routine. Doing your own flight plans, taking care of passenger baggage, catering, cleaning are all part of the deal outside of the airlines.

Lastly, while I understand that the discrepancy between the captain pay and F/O pay bothers you, there is a difference between corporate aviation and flying the public. Sure it would be great for the pilots but the fact is that what we are doing here is not competing with another fractional but with the customer doing his own thing. What can a customer get his own crew for???? That is the only question.

 

[netjetwife]

That would be great if this was about women and children but the last time I looked, it was not.


Frankly in corporate flying, the things you mention that are so hard are part of the every day routine. Doing your own flight plans, taking care of passenger baggage, catering, cleaning are all part of the deal outside of the airlines.

Lastly, while I understand that the discrepancy between the captain pay and F/O pay bothers you, there is a difference between corporate aviation and flying the public. Sure it would be great for the pilots but the fact is that what we are doing here is not competing with another fractional but with the customer doing his own thing. What can a customer get his own crew for???? That is the only question.

If the last time you looked you didn't see women and children that would mean that you are single? I'm sure that single pilots are in the minority. Flying may define a person's career, but it isn't their WHOLE life. A husband and/or father makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family, not just his own desires. Good ones, anway.

I mentioned the other jobs, because of the lack of compensation--not because my husband minded doing them. Flight attendants, as I see it, should NEVER make more than a pilot---particularly if that pilot is performing the duties of a FA AND flying the plane. Pilot's wages to cover the flying PLUS something extra for extra work. AT THE VERY LEAST, NetJets should encourage the owners to tip NOT discourage it while the FO qualifies for gov't assistance.

Warren Buffet was convinced of the VALUE of NetJets before he bought the company. He was first a customer like many other wealthy people, and everyone acknowledges that he is a financial wizard. He told his shareholders that NetJets was going to be a very BIG business. He has invested heavily in it, grabbing more and more of the market--75% now. Time to put some of the BILLIONS into the pilots that are the most critical component of the entire venture.

 

[xrated]

A husband and/or father makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family, not just his own desires. Good ones, anway

Ok, I was doing my best to stay out of this, but I can't hold out any more.

Your primary concern seems to be the pay at Netjets. Does it suck? YUP. Now, a husband/father (to answer a possible question, I am both) "makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family". Ok, that sounds fair. When he made the Netjets decision, wasn't he told the starting pay was going to be 28K. Did he really make a good decision for the family? Sounds like you are saying NO.

Look, you can blame who you want to blame. Its a sh!tty deal all around. But your anger and frustration are going to keep you very warm in the coming winter months in CO. Based on what most on this board are saying....and I have no reason not to believe them, its probably going to get much uglier before it gets better.

I'm not sure, but by reading all your recent posts, It seems that you might still be impressed by the fact that "Uncle Warren" is at the helm and all is well. I'm telling you sister, he does not give a crap. You can bet when the margins get thinner, (whatever that might be), he'll pull the plug and who knows what happens next. He's no spring chicken and his useful years are few. He seems to like the model, but what does the rest of the board of directors think? Maybe time will tell.

If your husband is as smart as you say he is, and if he cares about his family as much as you say he does, he'd be doing all an injustice if he wasn't actively pursuing other positions. A retired Lt. COL has to have some connections....as long as he didn't piss off everyone he came in contact with.

One other thing. The whole "Gulf war DFC, AF acadamy, tallented F-16 pilot, BIG DOG airline guy" blah blah blah, really doesn't set well with a lot of people. I mean no disrespect, there is honor in serving and all but come on. Right now he is just an Excel F/O. He is no more entitled to better pay then somebody who came from flying a twin Cessna. You loose a little credability with the rants about how great you husband is.

Good Luck.

 

[netjetwife]

Lots of Misunderstanding in your letter

Xrated, you are mis-stating my position. I NEVER said he deserves more because of those things--DFC, etc Absolutely, my friends husbands at NetJets deserve the same pay for the same job, just about all are underpaid there. I have posted that the ENTIRE TA is flawed across the board, is considered regressive in almost all areas and has serious QOL problems. I discussed money more because the posts that I replied to focused on it. The language in the contract that opens the door to a pilot being disciplned by what is found on the CVR is BAD NEWS for the whole industry, as is expecting a pilot to do part of the Recurrent Training at home for FREE. I do not consider making pilots be available by 2pm on their last day off to be really having the whole day off. There are many more, but I this should give you the idea.

I am NOT saying the decision was bad. It was a calculated risk that may well pay off. The money is there. Once again, you have misdiagnosed me. The frustration is because of corporate greed. I do NOT admire Warren Buffet. I do recognize his business acumen, but have no respect for how his employees are treated. Other successful businessmen do a better job of rewarding those who help build the business. I gave Michael Dell as an example. The shareholders are all pleased that NetJets is getting ready to make it big. The investments in the business are just starting to really take off. NJAmerica has been carrying NJEurope while they got it started. That's where the pilots' raises have gone. Now time to invest in the pilots, themselves. Wages are a cost of doing business--pay the pilots the industry average, at least. My internet research--that anyone could do--says that the fractional industry will keep growing, in light of terrorism and increased hassles/delays in airports that is a logical conclusion. All of the pilots in the business should want to see the NetJets pilots get a good contract, and raise the bar for all of them.

I posted earlier that he may not stay in aviation at all. His resume speaks for itself--no one has ever gotten him a job. If he did choose to keep flying, his friends would be happy to recommend him because he's a great pilot AND a really nice guy. He'd not like it any better than you that I bragged on him---though, I was more trying to establish the level of quality NetJets is getting from him as a pilot/instructor/diplomat to their wealthy owners...all for chump change. He helped the company to grow, now it is time for them to make good on their promise to ALL of the pilots. The MEC has been telling the pilots for a year that "Kick-Ass" pay was going to be theirs....industry leading contract...great scope clause, improved work rules, etc. Their own union leaders sold them out---more frustration, there. ALL of the wives are upset.

I think you're being a little harsh. Comments about my husband's talent, etc were scattered throughout several long posts. It is sad and ironic that in trying to establish his credibility, you say I hurt it. I am guilty of having a wife's pride , not of "ranting". The Academy references were necessary to help explain not being able to go to JetBlue. That perplexed many. I compared flying for the majors to point out that he works harder than he did there, but likes it BETTER flying the Excel. That was not bragging and/or putting down fractional pilots. He tells me they work harder and have much more responsibility.

Are you by any chance an ex-military pilot yourself? I know that in the AF there was a problem of jealousy between the "heavies" and fighters. Perhaps some of that colored your response to my posts? Whatever the reason, it is something I'll keep in mind should I ever post on an aviation board again. Once more, my husband NEVER talks about his military flying. And he certainly doesn't piss people off, as you insinuated. Do you have something against officers--or is it just wives that "wear their husbands rank"? You're really wrong about us, on both counts.

The coming months should be very interesting, I hope that you'll be pulling for ALL of the pilots at NetJets and their families. Good Luck in your career and best wishes to your wife and children--it's a tough lifestyle.
LaVonn

 

[slowto250]

You go girl !

To Netjetwife,
I know you must feel foolish having to defend your obvious pride and adulation for a husband whose qualifications speak volumes about his character and skill. Please don't. Our industry (professional flying), has suffered through a very lengthy dowturn. The cycle, I believe, has recently reached bottom, and will rebound in the next several years. Tell hubby to keep the faith. Having endured the anti-union genius of Frank Lorenzo (aviation's anti-christ), I can honestly say that there is life after scheduled carrier employment. Do I have one of those cush corporate jobs, with more time off than I know what to do with ? No. However, I now make @ twice what I did as a 4 year EAL F/O, while working about the same number of days per month. Sure do miss those B scale wages ! Hang in there.

 

[netjetwife]

You've restored my faith, sir.

Slowto250, thanks for the kind words and support, both of which are in short supply around here sometimes--or so it seems. Part of my problem is in making the transition from the military-flying culture to the civilian-flying world. Posting on this board has certainly been a learning experience! Best Wishes, LaVonn

 

[DrRaptor]

I also lend my support to everyone and echo the comments that things are getting better.

I know a lot of people speak down of Air Tahoma on these boards, but the new pay structure that Noel put in place only a scant few months ago measurably improved the base pay, and made it possible for first-year FO's on both our CV-580 and CV-240 to make pretty decent money compared to other airline if they're willing to put in the time (20-22 days a month on duty, but not necessarily flying), which puts us 3 of 6 compared to the 5 other airlines that I have numbers for who fly similar sized aircraft (ATR, DASH-8) on the high end of their pay potential, and 5 of 6 on the low end of the pay potential, but still much better than at airlines flying aircraft smaller than ours.

Things are starting to improve on the smaller end of the spectrum while the high end is unfortunately having to deal with the problems with mis-management and overflow from the "boom years" in the 1990s when too many people (individuals and groups) tried to keep things high when things got lean. But it's not just in the US that these problems exist. It's happening all over the World, and hopefully we'll see a few years of problems at the top, everything sort itself out, and then be back to better times with the pay getting to where it should be.

 

[Cardinal]

the ENTIRE TA is flawed across the board, is considered regressive in almost all areas and has serious QOL problems. . . The language in the contract that opens the door to a pilot being disciplned by what is found on the CVR is BAD NEWS for the whole industry

If only more pilots had this kind of intelligent, informed support at home. Heck, the industry would be better if the pilot's themselves had similar backbone, and awareness of precedent setting issues. This is a wife that can help raise the bar. Kudos to netjetwife.

 

[Hawkered]

No this is someone who should have planned her family's retirement away from the vagaries of commercial aviation. She should have also learned to budget and not spend all her time at the O.C.

 

[TORCH67]

Hawkered for MEC chairman!!! Please post your name so that we can vote for someone with such vision and understanding. Sorry, forgot you dont get involved with antiquated organizations. Let us know when you get that view of the Atlantic ocean that you talk about. My guess is that it will be from somewhere within 90 miles of Sewark NJ.

NetJetswife is passionate and proactive. You may not agree with her views, but don't stifle her motivation. Netjets pilots just want to be paid a fair wage for a fair days work. Remember as emoitional as it gets, it's just business. Vote what you feel you can accept, work hard and don't lower your standards. The owners pay their Mgmt fees and hourly fees just like their contracts say. We need to deliver the same service that we agreed to when we hired on. If you can't do that then it's time to move on to a new job. This fight is not with the owners!!!! I love the flying we do at Netjets, and hope to do it for a long time. I also hope that I can get paid enough to support my family the way I hope. When those two don't meet I will move on.

Bottom line, be civil and respect other peoples views.

P.S. This post was checked for illegal and terrorist like statements. It was found to be safe and non-threatening.

 

[netjetwife]

Sometimes to raise the bar you have to raise your voice.

Hawkered, are you not able to discuss the ISSUES without resorting to personal insults? I complain about the low pay that FOs receive as being unjust for ALL in that position. Lack of job security, CVR used for discipline language, and work rules that make a difficult job near unbearable, are contract problems that NO pilot should be subjected to. There are inequities in the industry and I firmly believe in EVERYONE affected taking an active role in improving the situation for ALL pilots--and their families.

Our oldest son started college this year, paid for w/savings from the AF career. It is much harder now to save for his brother's and sister's education, but a professional pilot OUGHT to be able to provide for his children's education--where ever he works. My complaints about the pay are for all pilots' families and are not always a reflection of my family's financial situation, alone. I am privvy to the struggle faced by many other families and my statements are based on that knowledge .

Your derogatory comments regarding officers' wives are an insult to all military families past and present, who have sacrificed much in the service of our country.

Cardinal and DrRaptor, thank you for your support and recognition of the role played by the wives, who back their husbands 100% in their endeavors to achieve fairness in the workplace.

 

[Hawkered]

Okay, Netjet Wife. I promised quite a few people to stop being mean on these message boards so here is my first attempt.

First of all, I am very grateful for the efforts of your husband and those who have served in the most rcent conflicts as well. I do not agree with John Kerry about anything and would fund the military better and have served the present theater with at least an extra 100,000 troops. I am well aware of sacrifice, I grew up without a father due to military service and his being a POW. (The Kerry stickers and posters at he union hall make me boil.)

Your husband does deserve better. We all deserve better.


I have a three-fold problem here.

1) Non members logging on to the union message board.

2) An MEC that promised so much and delivered so little.

3) A union that allowed a bunch of Eastern scabs to get employment and membership here.


You talk about character and I'm sure you and your entire family have it in boat loads. The problem is, as X-rated has already stated, that many people paid for their jobs here in the first place.

Your first class seats at American became empty when the price of a private jet became unrealistically low. We now have consumers of this product with caviar tastes hoping to consume at fast-food prices.

Figure this simple model:

Pay for training:

$8,500

Hotels

$2000

First year salary:

$28,000 minus $10,500, or $17,500.

That was the perceived value of our expertise by the bean counters.

"I have met the enemy, the enemy is us".

 

[Hawkered]

Hey Torch,

Yepper, I'll be pulling up my new yacht here shortly as soon as I get those kick backs that the company promised me, arrive. Let's get that conspiracy theory rolling, huh?

If we go in-house I might consider it!