How correct log simulator hours?

[merlin76]

Can someone explain me how I can correct log simulator hour. I spoke with few CFII and their point of view is different. Can I log Duration and Simulated IFR?

Thank You

 

[Timebuilder]

If by the term "simulator" you mean a FTD, or flight training device (as opposed to the desktop PCATD), here is what I do:

Under aircraft type I put what the manufacturer calls it (Frasca 142, AST-300, etc)

Under the column for tail number I put "SIM"

Since it is not really an airplane, I put nothing under Total Time, Duration, single or multi engine, etc.

I enter the time spent on the sim under Simulated Instrument.

Hope this helps.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sim time

Please, please, keep it away from Total Time. Sim time is not, under any category, circumstance or definition, flight time. Log it as "Simulator" or "Ground Trainer," whichever column applies in your logbook.

If your instructor gave you instruction in the ground trainer, he/she should write it up and sign it off in the tiny comments section on each line. But he/she should NOT count it as Dual Received or Instruction Received.

 

[skybuda]

My friend you are just like me at that point in my life. Trying to get eveyhour you could in the logs book. But if you are going to only do 10-15 hours in the FTD, then just use it as that a flight tranning device. Dont even worry about putting it in your log book, unless you need it for currency, ect. From the amount of time that you show 320 I would have to figure that you have most of your cert, and putting it in the book is going to really do nothing for you, expect having to explane why you lied on you resume and over stated you time by 15 hours. And finaly I have to agree with the above, what ever you do dont put it in your total time.

 

[avbug]

Certainly show the training received in your logbook; the instructor providing the training is required to put the entry in your log and sign it, IAW 61.189(a). However, as others above stated, don't include this time under any other totals aside from your simulator column.

There are exceptions; simulator training may form the basis for total experience toward certificates and the instrument rating (and type ratings), but it's best to steer clear of doing this. Despite some wonderful advances in simulator technology over the past couple of decades, sims are still viewed largely as being quite different from the aircraft they represent, and are not granted the same credence. The result is that the inclusion of simulator time among your other totals will give the appearance of padding the logbook.

Another concern with logging sim time is that it can really mess up your totals when attempting to fill out job or insurance applications. Simulator time is not flight time. Under 61.1(b)(12)(ii), it is pilot time, but you're much better off keeping it all by its' lonesome.

I keep simulator time and flight engineer time in my logbook, but those times don't reflect any other column in the logbook, and as a result don't interfere with other totals. In this manner I can still show the experience, but there is no hint of impropriety or mixing of experience.

 

[merlin76]

Thank you very much for help...

 

[MartinFierro]

Just a note. From what I recall, if you mean "simulator" to be a PCATD, FTD (e.g. a Frasca, ATC-920, etc., etc.) or other type of trainer, these are not simulators according to the FAA. They are just that: PCATDs or Flight Training Devices, as appropriate.

To officially be a simulator, the device must have some sort of motion simulation.

But regardless, no I would not put that time in Total Time, under any circumstance.

 

[AV1ATRX]

I am going to revive this thread because there is currently a discussion going on that a PCATD is legal for IFR currency. Can anybody quote actual regulations spefically stating that is is permissable to log the approaches completed on a PCATD and count them towards instrument currency?

 

[SpinDoctor]

Reading these two should help clear it up.

FAR 61.51 (g)

FAR 61.57 (c)

 

[EngineOut]

Actually, FTD/SIM time can be logged and included as "Total Time" just not "Flight Time" (2 totally different categories).

Under Part 61:

2.5 hours can apply towards the 40 TT for Private -- 61.109(i)(1)
20 hours can apply towards the IR -- 61.65 (e)(2)
50 hours applied towards the 250 TT for Commercial -- 61.129(i)(1)(i)
50 hours applied toward the ATP 1500 TT -- 61.159(a)(ii)

Keep in mind, though, the 50 hours ATP/50 hours COM/20 hours IR are total. So if you had 50 hours FTD, for example, when you got a COMM, then any future FTD time will not be credited towards the ATP, but the 50 you have will.

Additionally, a CFI/CFII cannot log FTD time as "dual [flight time] given" for the same reason a pilot cannot log it as flight time.

FTD time can be applied towards the 135 IFR mins as well. But you can look that one up yourself

 

[avbug]

A PCATD cannot be used to meet recency of experience requirements to qualify under 14 CFR 61.57(c).

Advisory Circular AC 61-126, Qualification and Approval of Computer Based Aviation Training Devices

"b. Reducing Flight Hours Through Ground Training. This AC provides for some training time on PCATD's meeting acceptable FAA standards to be used to reduce the total flight hour that otherwise would have to be accomplished in an aircraft or a flight training device to meet the requirement for an instrument rating under part 61 or part 141. PCATD's determined to meet the criteria established by this AC may be used in lieu of, and for not more than, 10 hours of time that ordinarily may be acquired in a flight simulator or flight training device authorized for use under part 61 or part 141. HOWEVER, THE faa HAS NOT AUTHORIZED THE USE OF PCATD'S FOR CONDUCTING PRACTICAL TESTS NOR FOR ACCOMPLISHING RECENCY OF EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS. "

A flight instructor can show PCATD time as instruction given. In fact, an instructor is required to do so, by 61.189(a). Note that this requirement isn't stated "should," but "must." Endorsing the logbook to show instruction given is mandatory.

Keeping a log of "total time" that differs from flight time is contradictory, and ill advised.

 

[EngineOut]

A PCATD cannot be used to meet recency of experience requirements to qualify under 14 CFR 61.57(c).

I was not referring to a PCATD in my last post. We all understand PCATDs are different from FTDs, which are different than "Simulators," right?

A flight instructor can show PCATD time as instruction given. In fact, an instructor is required to do so, by 61.189(a). Note that this requirement isn't stated "should," but "must." Endorsing the logbook to show instruction given is mandatory.

It IS instruction given, just not flight time, as would be logged in the "dual given" column of the log book. Just because you need a record of instruction given (as your FAR quote correctly states) it doesn't mean it needs to go in a flight time column of the logbook. It is ground instruction. Personally, I keep a logbook that includes ONLY FTD/SIM time I've flown and instruction given in the FTD/SIM and a separate logbook with only flight time in an aircraft (airplane in my case).

Keeping a log of "total time" that differs from flight time is contradictory, and ill advised.

There is no need for an alternate logbook in most cases (it is in my case because I have a lot of time given and received), just make sure the time under the SIM/FTD column is NOT included in the "Flight Time" column. As I said before, TT and Flight Time by definition, are 2 DIFFERENT NUMBERS. If one has logged any SIM/FTD time in the past, these MUST NOT MATCH! Many people are confused by TT and FT, there is a distinct difference as TT includes SIM/FTD, whereas FT is only that time in an AIRCRAFT. So if you have any FTD/SIM time and you're not making a distinction between TT and FT, then it will come back to bite you eventually.

 

[EngineOut]

A while back I had the opportunity to fly a jet simulator (@ flight safety) with my airlines' VP flight ops, formerly Chief Pilot/Check airmen/Captain etc.. He gave me instruction and put it in my logbook. These are the columns included:

1. TOTAL DUATION OF FLIGHT
2. AIRPLANE MULTI-ENGINE LAND
3. JET
4. LNDGS (day)
5. ACTUAL INSTRUMENT
6. APP
7. FLIGHT SIMULATOR
8. DUAL RECEIVED

Ive never really given second thought about this, until reading this thread. I'd expect that given the VP's experience and what not that he'd know exactly what is legal and what is not.

Can anyone give specific regulation(s) that prohibit logging these categorys? Or is it just "ill advised"?

This is a whole new can of worms, as I only have the same experience you do (as an instructee in a Level D), but these fall under Part 142 (and in some cases Ops Specs of airlines). You may log the landings, I know for sure, but the rest is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I defer.

 

[avbug]

The landings should not be logged, nor should the operation be shown as total time (total flight time).

Don't keep separate column for total time, and total flight.

Simulator time (or FTD time, or PCATD time) shouldn't be reflected in any other columns in your logbook, except instruction received.

I prefer to show it as instruction received for qualifying purposes, but to leave it out of the totals at the bottom of the page when tallying instruction received. Therefore, it's shown as a line item in the logged page only, and never reflected in any totals except simulator.

Aditionally, it should not be logged by category and class, or if so, it should not be reflected in those totals. To do so will mess up your totals. Keep sime out of all totals, except flight simulator, else you'll have a tallying nightmare one day. Better to take the hint now, than find out when you're tearing your hair out during the interview, trying to fill out the form.

Use of sim time in any total in your log gives the appearance of padding your logbook. Even if you are entirely within your privilege of logging time, avoid even the appearance of evil.

Which will include steering clear of krispy kreme, I might add...

 

[flx757]

Can anyone give specific regulation(s) that prohibit logging these categorys? Or is it just "ill advised"?

I'll start with FAR Part 1 - Definitions

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

That would seem to rule out numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5. Unless the sim was a Level C or D, then it also rules out 4.

 

[EngineOut]

The landings should not be logged, nor should the operation be shown as total time (total flight time).

If it is a level D sim, it's FAA Certified for landings, therefore, landings can be logged in the "Landings" column

Furthermore, Flight Safety is a 14 CFR Part 142 school, and the rules governing those are different. I don't know if the logging of time is affected relative to those rules, but I know the FAA Certification Level of the sim makes a difference for purposes of logging time.

 

[avbug]

You can log it but it's not pilot time. It's not flight time. Log anything you wish, including ultralight time. Logging sim time for anything but time smacks of padding a logbook.

Logging the landings in an approved simulator under Part 142, or an approved simulator in general, may be used to meet the recency of experience requirements of 61.57. However, that's it.

Unless one is trying to pad one's hours, there is no reason to calculate simulator, FTD, or even PCATD time in any other total except simulator time. Further, under 61.51, it has no applicability outside that classification.

 

[AV1ATRX]

Thanks to all who answered. I was quite satisfied by AC 61-126, but some others participating in the discussion refused to take that as the gospel and demanded a regulation that explicitly defined the difference between a FTD, simulator, and PCATD.

As usual I got more than I needed from you all. Thanks again.

 

[slickmagneto]

LOG EVERY MINUTE

I say Log it All and let the hiring Gods or the FAA decide if it is appropriate.