How about this theory...

[DetoXJ]

I don't see why a 500TT FO had anything to do with an "experienced" Captain allowing him to sit in the left seat etc etc. Total time in type has little (but some) to do with good sound judgement. The only thing that would have helped 3701, barring better pilot judgement, was if Pinnacle had trained its pilots on high altitiude aerodynamics as well as how they related to the CRJ.

DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".

 

[Guitar Guy]

It's already happening. Pinnacle is no longer allowed to hire 250 hour Gulfstream wonders since the FL410 Crash had a 300 Hour Gulfstream FO in the right seat.

How many hours did the captain have? The low-time FO wasn't the PIC, even if he did occupy the left seat for part of that flight.

I don't think hours in the logbook, or lack thereof, was the problem in the Pinnacle crash.

 

[pilotdiscretion]

DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".

There is an old saying. "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots"

The big question from 3701 is how do you spot the cowboy pilots and send them out to pasture? How do you find the FO that wants to be Goose to the Captains Maverick? How do you ensure that the frat boy aloof attitude isn't the standard when the situation calls for anal retentive attention? How do you find these people and correct them with out the Professional Standards police on every jumpseat turning pilots into matching automitrons?

I don't deny that the crew was out of control but we didn't need to say that. Bombardier, GE, Pinnacle and the FAA stood on chairs and screamed it was the crews fault. The only way to get the other messages out was to turn some of the attention away from the crew and onto the corporations and government dinosaurs.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

c'mon guys.....plain and simple It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD..

Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)

 

[JPAustin]

Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)

A good point, but remember that over there most training is done ab initio. Those pilots train from day one within the airline and are laser-focused on the training and operational culture of the airline. The same can not be said of "ab initio" programs in the States. Even the university to airline bridge programs aren't true ab initio in that the applicants do not compete for a slot that wins employment with the airline (contingent of course on successful completion), and that on day one immerses the applicant in the training and operational environment of the partner carrier (the university classes are an aside and the bachelor degree a necessary bonus).

But true dutchman, the fact still remains that safety levels are acceptable in Europe, yet they have a good number of low-time pilots flying much larger aircraft than the low-time pilots State-side.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Deto-

Maybe I was unclear. The inadequate training I was referring to was that, to my knowledge, PCL crews were never given high alt training that would have made them aware of slow speeds in the CRJ. Or for that matter, swept wings in general. At ASA, I was given several hours of ground school in just this subject. After one of our crews stalled out at 370 or 390, the training folks decided to teach us not to ever go below .70. Was the crew of 3701 ever taught this? I ask this question not rhetorically, but truely because I don't know the answer.

Again, the 3701 crash had little to do with a low time FO.

 

[unwashed]

how about min rest over nights? Circadian swaps? will that ever get the attention of insurance companies? I think not. We in the 121 world do not put enough bodies on the ground for anyone to change the way we hire or schedule.

 

[PCL_128]

After one of our crews stalled out at 370 or 390, the training folks decided to teach us not to ever go below .70. Was the crew of 3701 ever taught this? I ask this question not rhetorically, but truely because I don't know the answer.

That's correct, we were never trained on any high-alt aerodynamics. As far as I'm concerned, what they teach now still doesn't cover enough. Pinnacle's training program is lacking at best.