• This site moved from forums.flightinfo.com to flightinfo.com. Please update your bookmarks.

How about this theory...

JPAustin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Posts
217
Total Time
>5000
...In the end, it will be the insurance companies who end up forcing carriers to raise the bar in hiring pilot applicants. At some point (and to a degree we have seen it happening), there will be enough incidents, accidents, customers hurt or killed due to the "bottom of the barrel" being placed into flight decks, that the insurance companies will say to these carriers, "either raise your hiring standards and incentive to attract more qualified personnel or we raise your insurance."


PS -- This is not my theory, I have paraphrased statements from a handful of analysts and statements in aviation business textbooks.
 

Guitar Guy

Charvel - San Dimas
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Posts
1,770
Total Time
Enough
JPAustin said:
...(and to a degree we have seen it happening)...
I'm not certain what you mean by that statement. Are you saying there have been accidents caused by low-time pilots in commercial service or are you saying that some insurance companies are already raising rates for carriers who hire low-time pilots?

Either way, this is a topic that's been debated much. I will say that I don't think hours in a logbook mean as much as demonstrated skill, intelligence and judgement. And certainly a good training program plays a role, too. Put another way, high-time pilots have accidents, too.
 

DetoXJ

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2004
Posts
239
Total Time
10,000
It's already happening. Pinnacle is no longer allowed to hire 250 hour Gulfstream wonders since the FL410 Crash had a 300 Hour Gulfstream FO in the right seat.
 

flying4food

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Posts
171
Total Time
5000
DetoXJ said:
It's already happening. Pinnacle is no longer allowed to hire 250 hour Gulfstream wonders since the FL410 Crash had a 300 Hour Gulfstream FO in the right seat.
SOURCE?? Oh ya, a Credible SOURCE, not he said she said, or I heard it from so and so, who heard it form so and so in training, so it has to be true!!!
 

AAflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,493
Total Time
9000+
That is what I heard, my source is the ALPA Pinnacle Secretary/Treasurer. Not second hand info, but directly from him. He seems to have a handle on what is going on there. He has been there since 1997.

AA
 

k_EAT=ho_ME

Closet User...shhhh!
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Posts
128
Total Time
~2300
Insurance companies would probably reduce their risk more by forcing companies to eliminate certain operational practices, such as circling approaches, contact approaches, non-precision approaches, etc. I'd be surprised if there's much real evidence that low-timers are a significant risk factor.
 

AAflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,493
Total Time
9000+
It seems other companies for insurance reasons demand time in type, or substantial total time for insurance reasons. Many of these companies are or WERE smaller, but there may be some merit to this subject.

Just like owning a personal airplane and time in type as well as total time seems to adjust the cost downwards..

AA
 

FN FAL

Freight Dawgs Rule
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Posts
8,580
Total Time
7,000+
JPAustin said:
...In the end, it will be the insurance companies who end up forcing carriers to raise the bar in hiring pilot applicants...
Read the news fruit cake. The financial news is predicting that there is going to be a downturn in airline ticket sales and major airlines are downsizing. Insuring new hire low time pilots at the regionals is going to become a non-issue.
 

CapnVegetto

The Prince of all Saiyans
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Posts
1,981
Total Time
4500
c'mon guys.....plain and simple just like Mark Twain said. "Significant evidence" and all that bull$hit it stupid. It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD. A very close friend of mine runs the sims at Pinnacle, and he has told me NUMEROUS times about how all the 300 hour wonders from Gulfstream are so far behind the airplane that if they crashed, they'd have to take a cab to the crash site. He's told me about how much better anyone with a little bit of experience is, and how he's had to work so hard to 'get them through' the sim. This isn't hearsay, he said she said, secondhand anything. This is directly from the mouth of a guy I've known for years. At this level, you shouldn't be working hard to get through anything. You are a professional airline pilot. You are expected to meet a certain set of standards when you walk in the door, and are expected to be professional, proficient, and good at what you do. You aren't expected to be there on Daddy's dollar out of your 200 or whatever hours in a 1900 and then spoon fed every little thing and then baby walked through the sim, barely making it through! A freaking RJ is NOT hard to fly. If you have trouble with freaking regional SIC training, then you need to go wax floors or something. Regardless, I'm glad that the 200 hour daddy warbucks wonders aren't getting in anymore. It's better for the safety of the industry. Go out, get some experience, fly some freight, and actually become proficient at being a pilot, and then move into a complex jet when you're ready.
 

PCL_128

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Posts
15,296
Total Time
5000+
AAflyer said:
That is what I heard, my source is the ALPA Pinnacle Secretary/Treasurer. Not second hand info, but directly from him. He seems to have a handle on what is going on there. He has been there since 1997.

AA
He is partially correct. Pilots are still being hired from GIA, but they have to meet the mins just like everyone else. No more 500 hour GIA pilots, but still some 1000 hour GIA pilots.
 

JPAustin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Posts
217
Total Time
>5000
FN FAL said:
Read the news fruit cake. The financial news is predicting that there is going to be a downturn in airline ticket sales and major airlines are downsizing. Insuring new hire low time pilots at the regionals is going to become a non-issue.
Remember now, it is impossible to make a point when you have to resort to name calling, or as a famous philosopher once said, "insults are arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Now, I am not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that if you have a point to make, be bigger than the bunch on this board who seem to feel the need to name-call and make your point with civility.

Oh, and by the way, as I said in the original post at the end of the entire message to be read, the theory is not mine.
 

JPAustin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Posts
217
Total Time
>5000
FN FAL said:
Read the news fruit cake. The financial news is predicting that there is going to be a downturn in airline ticket sales and major airlines are downsizing. Insuring new hire low time pilots at the regionals is going to become a non-issue.
Remember now, it is impossible to make a point when you have to resort to name calling, or as a famous philosopher once said, "insults are arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Now, I am not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that if you have a point to make, be bigger than the bunch on this board who seem to feel the need to name-call and make your point with civility.

Oh, and by the way, as I said in the original post at the end of the entire message to be read, the theory is not mine.
 

BOHICAgain

I will miss you Daniel
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Posts
322
Total Time
5K
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple just like Mark Twain said. "Significant evidence" and all that bull$hit it stupid. It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD. A very close friend of mine runs the sims at Pinnacle, and he has told me NUMEROUS times about how all the 300 hour wonders from Gulfstream are so far behind the airplane that if they crashed, they'd have to take a cab to the crash site. He's told me about how much better anyone with a little bit of experience is, and how he's had to work so hard to 'get them through' the sim. This isn't hearsay, he said she said, secondhand anything. This is directly from the mouth of a guy I've known for years. At this level, you shouldn't be working hard to get through anything. You are a professional airline pilot. You are expected to meet a certain set of standards when you walk in the door, and are expected to be professional, proficient, and good at what you do. You aren't expected to be there on Daddy's dollar out of your 200 or whatever hours in a 1900 and then spoon fed every little thing and then baby walked through the sim, barely making it through! A freaking RJ is NOT hard to fly. If you have trouble with freaking regional SIC training, then you need to go wax floors or something. Regardless, I'm glad that the 200 hour daddy warbucks wonders aren't getting in anymore. It's better for the safety of the industry. Go out, get some experience, fly some freight, and actually become proficient at being a pilot, and then move into a complex jet when you're ready.

300 Hour FO..really i thought it was more than 500-600 TT for the Gulfstream guys when they got to PNCL... Actually a buddy of mine was one of those LOW TIME guys... not only did he do great ..he and his sim partner both got LOR from two different instructors... they actually prefer Gulfstream over my type.. right rudder guys...or maybe it was just a freak isolated incident

also not everyone was a "200 hour daddy" I see my buddy paying a shoot load of $$$ a month to "big brother" bank...JFYI
 

Bob Loblaw

Unimpressed User
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Posts
76
Total Time
.
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple just like Mark Twain said. "Significant evidence" and all that bull$hit it stupid. It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD.

CapnVegetto said:
A freaking RJ is NOT hard to fly.

So evidence is not important, nor, apparently is consistency.
 

DrunkIrishman

Cocaine is a helluva drug
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Posts
519
Total Time
2much
I don't see why a 500TT FO had anything to do with an "experienced" Captain allowing him to sit in the left seat etc etc. Total time in type has little (but some) to do with good sound judgement. The only thing that would have helped 3701, barring better pilot judgement, was if Pinnacle had trained its pilots on high altitiude aerodynamics as well as how they related to the CRJ.

Trying to blame that accident on inexperience is not wise. Improper decision making and incomplete training is what doomed those two, may they rest in peace.
 

DetoXJ

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2004
Posts
239
Total Time
10,000
DrunkIrishman said:
I don't see why a 500TT FO had anything to do with an "experienced" Captain allowing him to sit in the left seat etc etc. Total time in type has little (but some) to do with good sound judgement. The only thing that would have helped 3701, barring better pilot judgement, was if Pinnacle had trained its pilots on high altitiude aerodynamics as well as how they related to the CRJ.
DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".
 

Guitar Guy

Charvel - San Dimas
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Posts
1,770
Total Time
Enough
DetoXJ said:
It's already happening. Pinnacle is no longer allowed to hire 250 hour Gulfstream wonders since the FL410 Crash had a 300 Hour Gulfstream FO in the right seat.
How many hours did the captain have? The low-time FO wasn't the PIC, even if he did occupy the left seat for part of that flight.

I don't think hours in the logbook, or lack thereof, was the problem in the Pinnacle crash.
 

pilotdiscretion

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Posts
101
Total Time
1
DetoXJ said:
DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".
There is an old saying. "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots"

The big question from 3701 is how do you spot the cowboy pilots and send them out to pasture? How do you find the FO that wants to be Goose to the Captains Maverick? How do you ensure that the frat boy aloof attitude isn't the standard when the situation calls for anal retentive attention? How do you find these people and correct them with out the Professional Standards police on every jumpseat turning pilots into matching automitrons?

I don't deny that the crew was out of control but we didn't need to say that. Bombardier, GE, Pinnacle and the FAA stood on chairs and screamed it was the crews fault. The only way to get the other messages out was to turn some of the attention away from the crew and onto the corporations and government dinosaurs.
 

Flyingdutchman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Posts
1,571
Total Time
today?
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD..
Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)
 

JPAustin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Posts
217
Total Time
>5000
Flyingdutchman said:
Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)
A good point, but remember that over there most training is done ab initio. Those pilots train from day one within the airline and are laser-focused on the training and operational culture of the airline. The same can not be said of "ab initio" programs in the States. Even the university to airline bridge programs aren't true ab initio in that the applicants do not compete for a slot that wins employment with the airline (contingent of course on successful completion), and that on day one immerses the applicant in the training and operational environment of the partner carrier (the university classes are an aside and the bachelor degree a necessary bonus).

But true dutchman, the fact still remains that safety levels are acceptable in Europe, yet they have a good number of low-time pilots flying much larger aircraft than the low-time pilots State-side.
 
Top