Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

How about this theory...

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
FN FAL said:
Read the news fruit cake. The financial news is predicting that there is going to be a downturn in airline ticket sales and major airlines are downsizing. Insuring new hire low time pilots at the regionals is going to become a non-issue.

Remember now, it is impossible to make a point when you have to resort to name calling, or as a famous philosopher once said, "insults are arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Now, I am not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that if you have a point to make, be bigger than the bunch on this board who seem to feel the need to name-call and make your point with civility.

Oh, and by the way, as I said in the original post at the end of the entire message to be read, the theory is not mine.
 
FN FAL said:
Read the news fruit cake. The financial news is predicting that there is going to be a downturn in airline ticket sales and major airlines are downsizing. Insuring new hire low time pilots at the regionals is going to become a non-issue.
Remember now, it is impossible to make a point when you have to resort to name calling, or as a famous philosopher once said, "insults are arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Now, I am not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that if you have a point to make, be bigger than the bunch on this board who seem to feel the need to name-call and make your point with civility.

Oh, and by the way, as I said in the original post at the end of the entire message to be read, the theory is not mine.
 
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple just like Mark Twain said. "Significant evidence" and all that bull$hit it stupid. It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD. A very close friend of mine runs the sims at Pinnacle, and he has told me NUMEROUS times about how all the 300 hour wonders from Gulfstream are so far behind the airplane that if they crashed, they'd have to take a cab to the crash site. He's told me about how much better anyone with a little bit of experience is, and how he's had to work so hard to 'get them through' the sim. This isn't hearsay, he said she said, secondhand anything. This is directly from the mouth of a guy I've known for years. At this level, you shouldn't be working hard to get through anything. You are a professional airline pilot. You are expected to meet a certain set of standards when you walk in the door, and are expected to be professional, proficient, and good at what you do. You aren't expected to be there on Daddy's dollar out of your 200 or whatever hours in a 1900 and then spoon fed every little thing and then baby walked through the sim, barely making it through! A freaking RJ is NOT hard to fly. If you have trouble with freaking regional SIC training, then you need to go wax floors or something. Regardless, I'm glad that the 200 hour daddy warbucks wonders aren't getting in anymore. It's better for the safety of the industry. Go out, get some experience, fly some freight, and actually become proficient at being a pilot, and then move into a complex jet when you're ready.


300 Hour FO..really i thought it was more than 500-600 TT for the Gulfstream guys when they got to PNCL... Actually a buddy of mine was one of those LOW TIME guys... not only did he do great ..he and his sim partner both got LOR from two different instructors... they actually prefer Gulfstream over my type.. right rudder guys...or maybe it was just a freak isolated incident

also not everyone was a "200 hour daddy" I see my buddy paying a shoot load of $$$ a month to "big brother" bank...JFYI
 
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple just like Mark Twain said. "Significant evidence" and all that bull$hit it stupid. It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD.


CapnVegetto said:
A freaking RJ is NOT hard to fly.


So evidence is not important, nor, apparently is consistency.
 
I don't see why a 500TT FO had anything to do with an "experienced" Captain allowing him to sit in the left seat etc etc. Total time in type has little (but some) to do with good sound judgement. The only thing that would have helped 3701, barring better pilot judgement, was if Pinnacle had trained its pilots on high altitiude aerodynamics as well as how they related to the CRJ.

Trying to blame that accident on inexperience is not wise. Improper decision making and incomplete training is what doomed those two, may they rest in peace.
 
DrunkIrishman said:
I don't see why a 500TT FO had anything to do with an "experienced" Captain allowing him to sit in the left seat etc etc. Total time in type has little (but some) to do with good sound judgement. The only thing that would have helped 3701, barring better pilot judgement, was if Pinnacle had trained its pilots on high altitiude aerodynamics as well as how they related to the CRJ.

DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".
 
DetoXJ said:
It's already happening. Pinnacle is no longer allowed to hire 250 hour Gulfstream wonders since the FL410 Crash had a 300 Hour Gulfstream FO in the right seat.

How many hours did the captain have? The low-time FO wasn't the PIC, even if he did occupy the left seat for part of that flight.

I don't think hours in the logbook, or lack thereof, was the problem in the Pinnacle crash.
 
DetoXJ said:
DrunkIrishman, you have drank a little too much of the ALPA Kool-Aid. ALPA of course blammed the crash on inadequate training, "core lock" blah blah blah. Of course ALPA doesn't want to come out and say pilot error and inexperience. The inexperienced gulfstream FO sat in wonderment and admiration as he watched his Cowboy Captain climb to FL410 at a speed of Mach .5ish. I believe the IAS was showing 190ish? The FO had nothing constructive to say on the CVR except for "Man, Dude, this is totally awesome....this is the greatest".

There is an old saying. "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots"

The big question from 3701 is how do you spot the cowboy pilots and send them out to pasture? How do you find the FO that wants to be Goose to the Captains Maverick? How do you ensure that the frat boy aloof attitude isn't the standard when the situation calls for anal retentive attention? How do you find these people and correct them with out the Professional Standards police on every jumpseat turning pilots into matching automitrons?

I don't deny that the crew was out of control but we didn't need to say that. Bombardier, GE, Pinnacle and the FAA stood on chairs and screamed it was the crews fault. The only way to get the other messages out was to turn some of the attention away from the crew and onto the corporations and government dinosaurs.
 
CapnVegetto said:
c'mon guys.....plain and simple It's very simple.......300 hour pilot in 460 knot jet = BAD..

Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)
 
Flyingdutchman said:
Tell that to most European major airlines..

(btw I don't disagree with ya)

A good point, but remember that over there most training is done ab initio. Those pilots train from day one within the airline and are laser-focused on the training and operational culture of the airline. The same can not be said of "ab initio" programs in the States. Even the university to airline bridge programs aren't true ab initio in that the applicants do not compete for a slot that wins employment with the airline (contingent of course on successful completion), and that on day one immerses the applicant in the training and operational environment of the partner carrier (the university classes are an aside and the bachelor degree a necessary bonus).

But true dutchman, the fact still remains that safety levels are acceptable in Europe, yet they have a good number of low-time pilots flying much larger aircraft than the low-time pilots State-side.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top