How About Mice On A Plane? AA jet infested...

[AA717driver]

Life's too short. Re: this thread, STMFD! TC

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Ok...so back on subject.

A couple of our guys were apparently flying a new ERJ, recently delivered from the jungle a week or so before. At cruise, eyes glazed over...a big ass green spider comes up from under the FO's side of the dash, runs across the center pedastal, and goes back up under the captain's side of the dash.

Supposedly, their eyes weren't so glazed over the remainder of the flight.

- Checknsix

I don't believe this. You're telling me BOTH pilots we're awake? Yeah right.

BTW, what is a civvie pilot looking for on his six? Are you in prison?

 

[Guitar Guy]

So when did AA get A320's?

I'm guessing the oh-so-reliable media botched the story just a bit. Here's a blurb from AvWeb, quoting a TV station in MSP...

American Airlines says it has fixed all the damage a rampant mouse infestation caused to one of its A320s but not soon enough for maintenance workers who discovered the rodents. According to documents obtained by KARE TV in Minneapolis, the first mouse sighting was in early May and the plane was only cleaned, repaired and returned to service last week. According to the TV station, maintenance workers in Los Angeles shot video of the damage (which included dead mice in emergency oxygen masks and chewed insulation) and called the FAA's safety hotline.

 

[AAflyer]

AA73,
And that, folks, is simply because of the events beyond our control - the economy, and the financial health of the airline after the M/A.
The economy and such has nothing to do with your greed!
AAFLYER
I agree with AA73 the sh1t sandwich you received was not fair, however when are we going to let it go?
Never my friend, I hope you get more than a denied jumpseat for belonging to such a spinless weak pilot group. When were you hired? How would you like to scramble for a medical plan for your kids, sell a house that you swore you would never move out of, etc etc. You are part of this SCAB group that has taken the jobs that were not yours. You have pilots still on the property that were getting ready for thier first solo when I was on a layover in Cairo(on Property)!
Mach8Forest

I didn't get denied, I decided not to take the flight due to the comments. I even thanked them for the original hospitality of offering the jumpseat.

I find it hard to digest that you utterly hate me, for being hired in the late 90s. After flying for 5 previous airlines, 2 of them furloughing me. I can't understand you hate of ME, for being associated with one group. It's kind like 32LT10 hating all things JB regardless of one's past.

I truly do feel you anger, and while i can say I understand what you went through, when I was previously furloughed the market was good enough to jump on with another airline quickly.

There were pilots hired here from airlines from Fed Ex, to TWA and everything in between in the late 90s. They had an opportunity to get on with a major that was hiring and expanding. None of them had say in the purchase, and or integration. The thought of you hating them all because they were hired here does not make rational sense.

I guess i can say I am truly sorry again, and wish you the best. I can promise to never you use politics on the jumpseat when I am on the flight deck. I hope things honestly work out for you and your family.

However it appears you would rather see me hurt as much as you did, and watch my family hurt as much as yours.I am sorry you are living with that much hate in you.

AA

 

[SKYW Pilot]

Umm, Scab? YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Right...

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla.......please explain to me how you lost 4 years worth of seniority when the merger brought more jobs (aircraft front row seats) then there are former TWA pilots on the property.

Furlough Fodder FO

My seniority number dropped by roughly 1000 post-merge. At ~250 retirees a year, which was very typical at the time, that seems to add up to 4 years worth of guys slotted in ahead of me. Maybe my view is simplistic.

I feel for ANY furloughee, but this business is full of the unknown. I was turned down by Delta at the same time as I was hired at AA. Delta was the high flyer at the time. If I'd have gone with them, my career progression would have been very different.

If I would have had a crystal ball in 1991, I'd have gone FEDEX. No one thought that the box boys would end up with one of the premier flying jobs in 2006. It's all one, big unknown.

Good luck to everyone trying to make it. There are forces at work beyond everyone's control.

 

[Mach8Forest]

One Great Future. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YayAONi07s0

Not only did we bring planes, gates, Slots, ect. We had this coming!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LekiIzlHEds

Mach8Forest

 

[Mach8Forest]

Good luck to everyone trying to make it. There are forces at work beyond everyone's control.

So the APA is beyond everyone's Control?
Give me a break. You all act as if you are not part of the result. Are you an APA member? Do you give them money (dues) every month to act for you?
SPINELESS!
Mach8Forest

 

[aa73]

So the APA is beyond everyone's Control?
Give me a break. You all act as if you are not part of the result. Are you an APA member? Do you give them money (dues) every month to act for you?
SPINELESS!
Mach8Forest

Mach8:

Check your PMs. I explained to you, and several times previously on this board, that there is only so much the "rank and file" membership can do when the union leadership acts without passing it to a vote. This commonly happens during "closed-door" deals, as you very well know.

So, yes, in many ways the APA is beyond the membership's control. And no, we are not part of the result. Supp CC and the whole integration for that matter was created behind closed doors. What are we gonna do, recall John Darrah? In order to do that, we'd have needed a majority vote, which we most definitely didn't have. And even if he'd be recalled, he'd be replaced by some other APA type who would have shoved through a possibly-worst deal!

Ask AWA and US "rank and file" pilots how much control they have as their deal gets negotiated. The answer is just about none. Ask "rank and file" SWA pilots how much pull they had in influencing their union leadership's actions with the Morris guys. The answer is none. It is all conducted at the leadership level.

A seniority integration is not your average "file a grievance and recall the leadership" type of deal. In fact, it's never even been done that way before, to my knowledge.

Thanks for the Youtube links... especially the TWA one, brought back some good memories. I have to say that the AA-TWA ad is pretty shameful.

Regards,
73

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Gorilla,

With only 800 or so TWA pilots getting anything other than a staple I don't see how you could lose 1000 seniority numbers.

Check your relative seniority. What's your percentage in relation to the total number of pilots? I know that 3/4 of those TWA pilots that actually got integrated will retire within 5 years, so how does that figure into your calculations? You will actually be moving up faster now than pre-integration based on percentage. You can't measure your spot in line with a fixed number. What if you were #950. That would look great at AA, but would suck if you were at an airline with 1000 pilots. The fact that your specific number may have increased has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to exercise your seniority.

 

[aa73]

I won't, nor will I ever defend the APA's actions during our deal. But I will say this, and it needs to be said because everyone knows it's true:

This merger will forever be known as the most destructive, one-sided integration in airline history for one reason, and one reason only: the MASSIVE furloughs of mostly TWA pilots, F/As and other employees.

Had those furloughs not taken place: had AA grown and prospered, had TWA CAs kept their seats and enjoyed growth and prosperity, had the Co made money.. well then, this integration would have been viewed in a much more favorable light.

How do I come up with that conclusion... well, because of this: in past mergers where the acquired employees went to the bottom of the list - and the company went on to prosper and those employees kept their jobs and eventually upgraded - you hear NO talk of screw jobs, unfairness, and destruction. EVEN THOUGH THEY WENT TO THE BOTTOM (STAPLED!)

THAT DOES NOT MAKE A STAPLE JOB THE FAIR WAY, though. That is why there is no stapling in ALPA to ALPA mergers.

Our Reno pilots filed a lawsuit against the APA with their staple job. It was dismissed, and today you really won't find very many Reno pilots that feel they got a screw job. Why, because AA kept growing and prospering after the Reno buyout, and a lot of those folks are on widebodies now at pay levels substantially higher than Reno payscales (i.e., upwards career movement.)

I say again: the very reason our TWA coworkers got the screw jobs of their lives is due to the massive furloughing AA underwent. And folks, a screw job it was - because of that.

Had they all stayed on the property and enjoyed career advancement, they would find themselves in a similar situation to Reno and Morris pilots - probably some subdued anger, but NOWHERE NEAR what we have today.

THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO APA's BEHAVIOR!!!! Because a staple job must always be avoided at all costs. Rather, I am trying to point out the psychological ramifications that a furlough produces, which is totally understandable. And likewise, it is understandable that if said pilots were NOT furloughed, they would have a different mindset.



regards,
73

 

[nightfr8er]

What these TWA guys don't seem to realize also is that they were days away from going out of business. With all of the cash that they were hemorrhaging, they wouldn't have survived anyway if AA hadn't bout them out. So, you're either out of a job, or working at the bottom of AA's list, then out of a job if you're junior enough. AA wasn't the culprit. They were hosed anyway.

 

[nightfr8er]

This kind of back and forth between pilots of differnt groups and airlines is exactly what the management pukes want. They must love it when we fight amongst ourselves to see who can screw the other group the most. And then continue to hash it out for years afterward. I've been saying for years that what we really need is a true union - that pits all pilots (regardless of carrier or size of aircraft) against management. That's what we should really be fighting for.

 

[Mach8Forest]

What these TWA guys don't seem to realize also is that they were days away from going out of business. With all of the cash that they were hemorrhaging, they wouldn't have survived anyway if AA hadn't bout them out.
Give me a break! Are you an insider in Missouri/ STL/ Boeing/ politics? Do you really think they would have let us go under? We went into that winter with more cash on hand than we have had for 7 prior winters. Was it a well played out plan by AA/TWA bean counters so the goverment would approve the buyout? You bet it was, and the bean counters loved what the APA did because I was making 125k and was replaced by a 1 year newhire. Your post makes me sick as ignorance prevails with some stupid AAshole line pilots like yourself. Keep reading your APA propaganda and repeat what they tell you as you try to justify what your SCAB union pilot group did to other brothers of trade.
Mach8Forest

 

[Mach8Forest]

quote=aa73]How do I come up with that conclusion... well, because of this: in past mergers where the acquired employees went to the bottom of the list - and the company went on to prosper and those employees kept their jobs and eventually upgraded - you hear NO talk of screw jobs, unfairness, and destruction. EVEN THOUGH THEY WENT TO THE BOTTOM (STAPLED!)

THAT DOES NOT MAKE A STAPLE JOB THE FAIR WAY, though. That is why there is no stapling in ALPA to ALPA mergers.

Our Reno pilots filed a lawsuit against the APA with their staple job. It was dismissed, and today you really won't find very many Reno pilots that feel they got a screw job. Why, because AA kept growing and prospering after the Reno buyout, and a lot of those folks are on widebodies now at pay levels substantially higher than Reno payscales (i.e., upwards career movement.)
Had they all stayed on the property and enjoyed career advancement, they would find themselves in a similar situation to Reno and Morris pilots - probably some subdued anger, but NOWHERE NEAR what we have today.
if said pilots were NOT furloughed, they would have a different mindset.
AA73
Analogy is then that that if 2 boats are merged at sea, and all of the crewmembers are assigned to one boat, its ok for the larger group to force against thier will the smaller boats crew into the water? Yes they drowned afterward but that is not our fault, it was the storms! Well it worked before when the seas were smooth and thier were no storms! Why are you trying to sell the staple job as OK as it worked for 2 upstart airlines employees? I don!t get what you are trying to sell or justify.
Mach8Forest
Watch this video. It should have shown at the end one plane shooting down the other?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YayAONi07s0
73[/quote]

 

[aa73]

AA73
Analogy is then that that if 2 boats are merged at sea, and all of the crewmembers are assigned to one boat, its ok for the larger group to force against thier will the smaller boats crew into the water? Yes they drowned afterward but that is not our fault, it was the storms! Well it worked before when the seas were smooth and thier were no storms! Why are you trying to sell the staple job as OK as it worked for 2 upstart airlines employees? I don!t get what you are trying to sell or justify.
Mach8Forest
Watch this video. It should have shown at the end one plane shooting down the other?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YayAONi07s0
73

[/quote]

No.

I am NOT trying to justify the staple job. I made that very clear in my above post, a staple job is inexcusable.

However, your analogy is spot on: In that particular vehicle known as an airline merger, a lot of times the storms that follow will inevitably force the unluckier pilot group to drown.

For this reason, I am reiterating that a staple job is not the right way to go!

But rather I am trying to point out that if there are no storms, the so called "short-straw" pilot group often views the merger as a good thing, we were lucky we didn't drown, not only that but we turned our boat into a yacht, and I'm a captain on that yacht.

You see, I am trying to point out that the economic forces outside our control are what ultimately influences the opinions of a merged pilot group. If there are storms - then it was the worst, most unfair integration ever. If there is clear weather - hey, the integration wasn't that bad.

This line of reasoning is difficult for a furloughed pilot to comprehend - and most TWA pilots will never see it that way - but it's a fact. And not only is it a fact, it is the SOLE reason why this merger is viewed as the worst in airline history. Had we had clear weather after the merger, you and I probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now, because you'd probably be an MD80 CA with decent QOL.

Who cares if I used upstart airlines as examples? Are their pilots not just as worthy as TWA pilots? Do they deserve to be stapled just because they were upstarts?

Mach8, the fact of the matter is this- whenever there is a non-ALPA merger, there will always be one group who will call the shots. This is a fact, albeit an unfortunate fact, because IMHO it is unfair. There should be an industry standard that ALL airline mergers - regardless of size - should be regulated and integrated by a neutral arbitrator.

P.S. Have I already mentioned earlier that I am not using this as an excuse to the APA's actions? Good, just making sure!

regards bro,
73