How a REAL union operates! FLOPS IBT take notes

[Freedom]

Don't you love it when....

:uzi:

OMG get a LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are the men in the white coats when you need them?
All these conspiracy theorists need to redirect their energy on something less "James Bond" and based in reality.
I have NEVER EVER in any way suggested an in-house union, yet you DOLTS attach it to any thread I post on because it KILLS you to see THINKing individuals trying to have a SANE conversation.
This is real life, not some crazy movie you create to make your life more interesting!

a Union Buster gets caught with his pants down???

He takes it so darn personal. Kinda like someone caught him with his hand in the cookie jar.

Gotta love it!

Freedom is not Free, so fight on my Brothers and Sisters, fight on!

 

[Galaxy]

Thank you yet again, Galaxy for your mature and intelligent point of view...a rarity here.

If that is really the cost of a full page WSJ, there are still other newspaper (or similar) options.
I think the UAL letter is ideal if altered to our circumstances and would be a HUGE help to us.

For United's purposes, I don't think it hurt them in their passenger demographic terms, but then, a good majority of their passenger demographic only goes by cheapest fare, so I don't think it made much of a difference either way.

Here the owners have a huge investment, which they made based on a certain (now false) bill of goods they were presented...So I think that the right letter (and for goodness sake YOU write it because 98% of the goons on here are embarrassingly illiterate) would be amazingly effective.

Thanks-I don't see the need to bash anyone because a difference in opinion. I do get tired of Bob's Babbling BS the same ole crap--look at my union facts page that doesn't even list the IBT 1108 as one of the unions there. So no facts there....
Why not a website for the owners that isn't company run-like the ASAP Flightdeck site that was for NJA owners by the union? Sorry-www.flightoptionssucks.com is already taken by a former sales guy. Is it safe to say that most of the owners travel in and out of TEB? Would not the billboard be enough for now? Spending any amount of $$ on an ad that will come and go like the news is money foolishly spent. We all can agree that the owners could care less about your pay or job conditions. They just want to get from A to B for the cheapest costs to them. Thats why they are here anyway-we are the cheapest that offers more than they can deliver. Only when the pilots inhibit the owners from moving at their pace (hence the PLEDGE) will things change. It happened at NJA and worked. When the phone constantly rings off the hook at CGF with owners lawyers threatening lawsuits on breach of contract or the budget is so far in the red due to charter sell off will it ever have a chance of changing. So that is why the LOUD voices keep saying get on board, do the PLEDGE, pay your DUES. If you don't wish to do that then polish up the resume'.

I feel your pain-it's like banging your head on the wall at FLOPS.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Everything you see above is Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) laying the groundwork for a Decertification Campaign of the 1108 at Options.

That would be a cold day in HELL when that would happen! I don't agree with the approach of what the union has done at times, but I would CERTAINLY leave if left to deal only with the MUCH WORSE alternative, as would everyone else. Unfortunately right now I see people leaving on a DAILY basis (key union people included) and that scares the H**l out of me...THAT's why I feel it is so necessary to put a visibly PROFESSIONAL image out there. The billboard is a great idea, but done in a more pointed PROFESSIONAL way that lets the owners know EXACTLY what it is these jerks have been doing

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Why not a website for the owners that isn't company run-like the ASAP Flightdeck site that was for NJA owners by the union?

SEE! Now THAT is the result of a THINKING person with intelligent ideas to add in a sane conversation.
That is an EXCELLENT idea...

 

[Galaxy]

:uzi:


It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.

Yo dude relax--The Union doesn't say quit..
I DO!
The place is so infected that it just isn't worth the fight unless you have a few DUI's or drove a BJ off a runway or statutory raped a minor in ATL on your record and it will be hard to explain at a job interview.
Guys that have gotton fired from FLOPS have found great employment fairly quickly so losing a crappy job isn't the end of the world here....

 

[Freedom]

Voice of Treason Backpeddling....

Its amazing how when someone is caught with their pants down, they will backpeddle in an attempt to reestablish their position.

Better start your Decertification Efforts through an In House alternative to the 1108 under a new Screen Name, Voice of Treason.

That cover is blown.

Freedom is not Free.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

nimrods abound

That's a technique straight out of the Ford and Harrison union-busting playbook. Do it yourself -- you'll save money! You'll keep it in the family!

Nevermind that it'll be wholly ineffective.

Don't fall for it!

What a sad, pathetic side show.
How do we know YOU aren't using triple reverse super-secret psychology on us?
Stop cluttering the board and add to the think tank (if you're equipped to partake in such, that is).

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Or

...or is the "cluttering" itself a tactic out of the holy Sun Tzu "OMG we don't want to mail the PAID IN FULL members an itemized statement so make it disappear quick" manual?

 

[Freedom]

There he goes again....

...or is the "cluttering" itself a tactic out of the holy Sun Tzu "OMG we don't want to mail the PAID IN FULL members an itemized statement so make it
disappear quick" manual?

Trying to undermine support for the IBT 1108 and the Flight Options ELECTED Pilot Leaders. And since he already indicated the need for a Union in his earlier posts, where does that leave us?

Correct: Back to an In House Union.

Did you really have to go to Law School to become a Ford and Harrison Union Buster Voice of Treason, or do the Lawyers just hire Used Car Salesman to do their Internet posting for them???

Freedom is not Free.

 

[CA1900]

What a sad, pathetic side show.
How do we know YOU aren't using triple reverse super-secret psychology on us?

'cause I'm not that smart. :0

Stop cluttering the board and add to the think tank (if you're equipped to partake in such, that is).

Sure, I'll give you some background: I was on the organizing committee trying to bring ALPA in at my last (regional) job. The company paid a great deal of money to retain the services of Ford and Harrison to try and stop it. It's what they do, and they're very good at it.


The campaign failed in large part because a contingent of senior pilots, who built their nests very close to management, "came up" with the idea of an in-house "mutual interest committee" (not even a union) which would act as a "voice" to communicate our concerns to management, without all the mess an outside politics of a union. Our issues with scheduling, with pay and benefits, and so on, could be discussed one-on-one, in our little "family," without some outside union interfering.

Several line pilots, some close friends of mine, believed it. They said, "well, let's try this, and if it doesn't work, THEN we'll try and get a union in," having no idea just how much work it was (years) just to get to that point of finally having an election.

Well, enough people bought into the "in-house" idea that we only got 43% of the pilots voting Yes. Almost immediately, the on-time bonus program stopped, the medical insurance (previously free) required employees to pay a good chunk of the premiums, and so on. In 2000 (a couple years before this union vote), the psycales got a $2/hr bump for FOs, and 20 cents per hour bump for second-year-and-up captains -- and that was over 1989 payscales! First-year captain pay has not changed in eighteen years at that company, and the benefits have gotten more expensive for lesser coverage. (Put another way, the payscale has dropped by 43% over those eighteen years when adjusted for inflation.)

You can see how well the in-house non-union worked for the pilot group.


That's where I'm coming from, and why I called attention to the in-house issue. It's a deliberate distraction designed to fragment the pilot group, and nothing more. It's a technique Ford and Harrison advises, and it's effective if the employee group isn't savvy enough to know better. That's why I'm here: to tell you not to fall for it!

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I don't plan to...just stop falsely accusing ME of ever inferring so!
I AM beginning to wonder how much of a pilot group there is left to "fragment." We need to stop giving the impression that it is hopeless and we all need to quit (IF IT IS NOT).
I am all for "flying the pledge," have been since the beginning...I just want to know if it is all now in vain, and if ALL we are going to put out there are unprofessional blurbs.
The UAL example (again geared to our circumstances) can be carried out in any NUMBER of more cost effective ways.
Galaxy mentioning the website is just one that can be VERY effective.
I'm not an accountant like Mr 'capital letters randomly throughout every sentence' seems to expect, so sorry if I don't have the price list offhand for full page ads in assorted newspapers nationwide. It is relieving to see that there is at least ONE or 2 posters that can converse rationally without all the wannabe secret agent hype on both sides.
'night!

 

[Photoflight]

Voice of reason

Why dont you remake that UAL page so that it fits the flight options crews, their support for IBT1108, and the goals that they've set to turn floptions around.

Then print out 5,000 and stick a hundred in every plane.

Then make sure one gets put in every newspaper on every flight.

There I just did the same thing UAL did but it only cost 500 bucks or so a month and is tailored to your owners.

 

[50Pesos]

Voice,
I don't know why they think you are a mgt troll. I see you as a pissed off pilot that just wants action and wants it now! Unfortunatly, this is a crappy chess game that takes a long time to play.
I agree with the idea of the letter but think it out. The UAL business plan depends on customers and their returning business. That ad is a smack on the face to UAL MGT and will make passengers think twice about booking with them now. This will reduce the revenue (numbers) which is the only thing MGT looks at.
In FLOPS case the owners have CONTRACTS that they are locked into for a certain time. The customer is going nowhere till the end of the obligation. The owners know there are problems as most of them know it will take 3-4 jets to get them to the destination as the first few will break. FLOPS continues to provide poor service and the customers are going elsewhere. It is a revolving circle- have enough planes, pilots,mechanics to do the job and give each employee the tools they need to do the job. For mechanics it is time- for pilots it's green airplanes and competent crew.
Now.. the cost.. I think an ad like that was just over 100K for a 1 day print. Even if every pilot was paying dues (which they are not) is it worth all the dues is it worth almost 2 months of every dime to go to a 1 day ad to inform the few owners we have left that the S twins suck?
Again I like the idea but it is waaay to expensive for the return on investment so the FLOPS pilots can just say "see what we did". It will not bring any change to the current fight. It will piss of the two dingbats and B19 and they will think of something else to screw you with like double your health insurance...again..

For my two cents the UAL passengers that would be most enrage would be eating the breakfast and come across that page in the WSJ and think back to there extra time in the airport. I think a way to have a similar letter posted in the FBO's of high frequncy or in some print available would be effective.

Imagine them getting told again of a delay and not making their business meeting and or wedding and they read something like that. If nothing else when their friends ask about thier expierence, blood will boil.

 

[WabiSabi]

:uzi:

Typical ineffective and incompetent response.
Lose the junior high crew like this and do something EFFECTIVE (like the UAL ALPA example) with dues. Do you really think the owners are going to jump on the pilots side by seeing JUNIOR HIGH materials lying around, or by seeing a professionally written explanation of just what is actually going on?
It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.
I don't WANT to see the union fail (like so many "supporters" on here seem to want to)... so WTFing LACK of something like what UAL did?

It is MOST CERTAINLY *NOT* apples and oranges...in fact it would be MORE effective in this case.

The grim reaper bs is not only immature, little boy bs, but offputting to whoever sees it.

NOT the attention we WANT to be seen as PROFESSIONALS.

How about refraining from ignorant clutter like WabiSabi et al, and posting "better" IDEAS? Better yet DON'T post them if it needs to be a big "secret" for whatever reason...TELL the leaders!

They obviously NEED them!

No matter how much you type in bold and red text, it will not add substance to your vacuous assertions.

I doubt that you even have the cajones but, why don't you put your money where loud your mouth is? Do you pay dues? Have you volunteered for any committees? Until you do, you're just a loudmouth arm chair quarterback from the peanut gallery.....if not some management lackey.


Tell B19 that I said hello.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Tell B19 that I said hello.

Tell me yourself...

I can't figure out where his rants are going, the font is too hard to read.