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I'm noticing a trend here:

Pilots like to snipe at those who operate differently from them. The unquenchable need to feel superior to other pilots rears its ugly head more often in this industry than others.

Some people here are giving the impression that they would be very uncomfortable flying around without a big stack of instructions, *ahem* excuse me, manuals.

That is very commendable. But the intolerance mixed with lack of knowledge (like how I avoid the inflammatory word ignorance?) reflects poorly on some of us.

If these guys were hauling 50 pax into the air with no perf data, I might agree that it is unnecessarily risky. If you're only putting your own neck on the line with full realization of the risks, what is the problem? (Other than you have transgressed against the religion of manual-thumping fundamentalist operations preachers.)
 
Anybody need anything while I'm up?
 
100LL... Again! said:
I'm noticing a trend here: Pilots like to snipe at those who operate differently from them. The unquenchable need to feel superior to other rears its ugly head more often in this industry than others.
I couldn't agree more. I've even been guilty of it myself, sorry to say. As I said before, it's inappropriate for, say, an airline pilot to apply his standards to a guy who bombs fires or hauls checks. However, remarks like this...
Some people here are giving the impression that they would be very uncomfortable flying around without a big stack of instructions, *ahem* excuse me, manuals.
...suggest that you believe that the fire bomber or check hauler is perfectly justified in looking down his nose at the airline pilot who does his best to operate within all the FAR's and company procedures.

I carry a big ol' bag of instructions--er, manuals--every time I go to work because my company requires it. I pull them out occasionally if something unusual comes up during flight planning because, to my chagrin, I can't seem to memorize everything. But I can count on half of one hand the number of times I've pulled out a manual in flight. Why? Because I know my job.

Because of the nature of their jobs, guys like Avbug have to put The Mission ahead of Safety...and thank god they do. Because of the nature of our jobs, guys like me have to put Safety ahead of The Mission...and thank god we do.

But let's not decide which pilot is superior based on how many manuals or procedures he ignores.
 
Next, we could pick on guys that fly aircraft off of the flight decks of aircraft carriers for a living or B-52's.
 
I don't put the mission ahead of safety, and this is my point consistently. I do what I do safely. I've refused drops and fires and dispatches this year. I've been the first to say I won't be making a drop a certain way. I called off the air ops at a fire several weeks ago in conditions that were not safe. I arrived over the fire and determined based on the inability to control the airplane in the drop area that it wasn't safe, and told the air attack overhead as much. All air ops were suspended on that fire.

I work within the regulations as they apply to me. I adhere to the maintenance regulations, flight regulations, and agency regulations which govern my operations.

Earlier in the season I was the first fixed wing to begin working a large fire exhibiting extreme fire behavior and rates of spread. On my second load back to the fire, I experienced an emergency, and was forced to jettison the load. I notified the air attack and the incoming aircraft, which experienced the same thing. I deviated enroute home due to weather.

The air attack, based on those reports, cancelled all air opeations including the inbound helicopter resources that had been ordered. Within 20 minutes all personnel, including engine and handcrews, were pulled off the fire, and we let it burn that night. It was purely a safety issue.

I downloaded chemical this year, carrying less retardant in response to increasing density altitude and conditions. I carried additional fuel as I felt appropriate and had numerous occasions to use it.

Part of being a professional is conducting the mission safely. It can never be without hazard, but I think it would be a stretch to intimate that I would put the mission ahead of safety. I frequently use the full performance of the airplane, and I fly agressively as required. That doesn't equate to favoring mission over safety.
 
Avbug, forgive me for over-simplifying.
avbug said:
I work within the regulations as they apply to me. I adhere to the maintenance regulations, flight regulations, and agency regulations which govern my operations.
Some of your past posts, your "Any-pilot-who-even-looks-at-a-radio-is-a-pansy" attitude, made me think otherwise. I was wrong.

This last post of yours has been the most informative for me personally. Too many people get swept up in the heroic nature of your job (and it is heroic) and lose sight of the fact that you're still a pilot who does many of the same things we all do...just in a different environment.
 
Typhoon-

My point is that no one is entitled to be looking down the nose at anyone. I wa only picking on those who use their highly regulated environment as a platform from which to pontificate about other pilots' so-called lack of professionalim.

I must say that personally, I really like manuals/instructions. It's the way I like to do business, as it is with many of you. I really am not comfortable operating without a fair amount of procedure and documentation.

That said, I am not critical of those who do not operate the same way. If Avbug posseses the skills to operate in a seat-o-the-pant fashion, I admire that. I'm sure most of us could all learn to do the same things - if we wanted to. I don't prefer to do his type of flying, that's all. I'm glad he's willing to do it.

I think Avbug is a smartass, though, and some people seem to be rubbed the wrong way by that.

By the way Avbug, as long as I'm defending you here, do you think us instruction-book-readers are a bunch of sissies? If ya do I may have to limit my defense here...
 
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Operating seat of the pants.

There must be some guys here who have flown seaplanes, or even old taildraggers. I have a 1946 aeronca for which there is very little perfomance documentation. It would be useless anyways when the biggest factors involved with a takeoff are often the length of the grass or the firmness of the dirt. Factors not usually found in perfomance manuals.

How do you decide its safe to takeoff? You stick your finger in the air and gage the wind, contemplate the effects of the nearby ridge line, take a gander at the tree line, and make a judgement based on past experience. (some of which was bound to be scary if you fly to odd places)

Anyone who has done this type of flying knows what I am talking about. Why is it so hard for Les to understand that Avbugs fire fighting world is closer in spirit to private tail-dragger flying than it is to an airline operation? In the passenger transport world, all those regulations aren't for the safety of the pilots... they are for the safety of the passengers.

At the same time Avbug, when people claim your actions are unsafe... well surely you admit that your fire fighting ops have a smaller safety margin?
 
One would need to define what one considers a margin of safety. If one is shot at and the bullet misses by one mile, is one inherently more alive, and more safe than if it misses by one half mile, or ten inches?

If I depart a short mountain strip in a single engine dromader and am off at the half-way point, one might argue that I'm operating with a greater safety margin than if the strip is short enough that I'm off at the end of the runway. That might apply in consideration of an engine failure. Truth is that the flight is over either way if the engine fails or loses power...and in either case, I'm not getting stopped. (ever try braking hard in a large, heavy conventional gear airplane??...one that has no brakes when the engine fails??). Doesn't seem to matter much; impact what's at the end of the runway, or what's just beyond it. That's why the airplane has jettisonable cockpit doors and we're wearing a helmet...

The same logic applies to approaching the runway. I've heard folks say for years that one should always stay high enough in the traffic pattern such that one could make the runway if the engine fails. It sounds great, though to me it's stupidity. Thirty seconds before I approached the traffic pattern I couldn't have made the runway if the powerplant failed...two minutes before I couldn't have done so, either. In fact, I just spent an hour being unable to reach any kind of safe landing spot should the engine fail...but suddently it's all-fired important. Reduced margin of safety? Not really. Reduced margin for error, perhaps. But then that's simple enough. Don't screw up.

Do I think "instruction book readers" area bunch of sissies? That shouldn't matter unless those self same readers are very self-conscious and are running purlely on pride. However, you can always pick me out at the airport because I'm the guy with two pens in my pocket, and a fist full of three by five cards. I'm the guy who goes to lunch and studies aircraft systems, and carries around regulations to study. If you check various boards carrying discussions of the regulations, I'm often one of the more regular participants.

My first season in the C-130, I spent hours every day sitting in the airplane pouring over the -1 manual, pouring through the maintenance library, making study flash cards, grilling old hands in the airplane about every little detail. In the off season, I was the one that showed up an hour early for work to sit in the airplane and review cockpit proceedures. It's where I spent my lunch, and where I sat after work running checklists and doing blindfold checks. Perhaps that makes me a sissie, too...but being that intimate with the airplane means I'm alive today when I wouldn't have been if I hadn't put in the time and effort. Time and time again. The same for each airplane I've flown.

When I first got a Learjet seat, I bought every study guide and bit of information that could be had on the airplane. Maintenance pubs, manufacturers pubs, test data, every scrap of information I could find, and digested it. Later, I was conversant enough with the airplane I was asked to write the company training manual for an operator who was taking on a learjet. Do I think book-readers and instruction-followers are "sissies?" I was a company safety officer as well, and wrote and administered their safety program. At another company (corporate) my job title was Director of Maintenance. I lived and died based on regulation and paperwork You tell me. Perhaps I'm a sissie, too.

When I got into the PB4Y, I purchased the origional 1944 manuals to study; all of them. I kept them in pristine condition, but made copies and marked them heavily. (All my manuals and books are work and dog earned and heavily marked due to study). I made study guides, question and answer books, and collected every bit of data I could find on the airplane. I don't fly it any more either, but I still collect everything I come across, as I do for each airplane I've flown or might fly. And for each operator or company, and so on, and so on.

I appreciate the sentiments, but I don't need defense, nor do I apologise for what I do. When I leave here and operate under IFR for a certificate holder, I do what I must do. I fly legally then, too. Just as I do now. I fly safely then, as I do now. I am professional then, just as I am now.

Some might be surprised to find that agency regulations in most respects are modled after 14 CFR Part 135. The various agencies assign "managers" to each airlplane, the sole duty of whom is to watch over and ensure that the airplane or crew do not violate any regulations. No other organization or company has such oversight...one manager for each aircraft. No other company or organization requires each pilot to be a mechanic, such that the airplane gets attention and service at the same time it's squawked...and few other places require the same level of systems intimacy as do we...not only do we fly it, but we fix it, too.

There are more hazards, but I don't know that I could agree that we operate at a reduced margin. A comparison between an airline and tanker ops is apples and oranges in many respects. We often use a significantly larger share of the performance capabilities of the airplane, but that's just not an issue until they're exceeded. Tankers use the full runway, but when was the last time you read about one using the runway, cutting down the fence, and just missing a gas station? Or read of a pilot so poorly trained that he couldn't recognize a stall, lost cotrol, and then reported immediately after to the media that something must be done because "my flight instruments gave me no useable information?"

You'll never see the tanker industry holding out as a place that hires kids out of college, or even a place that promotes or works based on a seniority system. It will never be entry-level. It will never be a place that offers to let someone fly if they pay enough (ooh...pay to play really can be introduced into any thread, can't it??), and it's not even a place where folks have enough time to concern themselves with unions and scope clauses. We're all too busy showing up and getting the job done to fuss.

You'll never hear of a tanker crew in trouble because they were so concerned about a coffee stain in flight that they needed to remove their clothes. (remember that one?). Or for whom a burned out lightbulb or other minor squawk really is reason for delaying or cancelling an operation. Does that mean a reduced margin of safety, or is it simply a working environment?

Now I don't decry those operations. I'm as comfortable operating at FL410 as I am at 3' AGL. I'm as comfortable operating IMC as VMC. I'm as comfortable wearing a shirt and tie as I am a nomex flight suit and kevlar helmet. I'm known for as much courtesy and professionalism to passengers as I am to ground crews, loaders, mechanics, and other ops personnel. I don't see any change in professionalism when I change jobs or employers with the season(s) or times. I'm just doing something different. I don't apoligize for what I do under either hat; and I have no need to defend what I do. For those that do, my sincere sympathies.
 
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Or read of a pilot so poorly trained that he couldn't recognize a stall, lost cotrol, and then reported immediately after to the media that something must be done because "my flight instruments gave me no useable information?"
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You gotta be sh***'n me! What's the story on this one?
 
Heres a simple definition of margin of safety in flying: The difference between the skill possessed and the skill required for a task.

Also I disagree with the notion that margin of error and margin of safety are two different things. If there is no room for error then I believe that you also have a narrow margin of safety. You may come through in shining colors each time, but it doesn't mean you weren't this close to buying it.

It should be clear as day that the type of flying Avbug is describing is inherently more dangerous than jet passenger ops. But, getting back to my opening statement, I would admit that if he is very skillfull he may well be safer than a marginally skilled pax jet pilot.

I find it kind of amazing that Avbug denied that his fire fighting is less safe than other, less hair-raising, types of flying. So the question is does he just not see it? Or does he just think he is that much better than everyone else?
 
Semantics, semantics.

Here is a possible justification for a difference between safety margin and error margin.

Suppose you are flying over steep, rocky terrain at night.

Suppose you are at an altitude at least 3000 ft above the terrain.

Now consider a single engine airplane vs. a turbocharged twin loaded well below gross weight (i.e.: can maintain altitude with an engine out).


If nothing goes wrong, the skill required is the same to succesfully fly over the hypothetical mountain range. The margin of error available is the same for both conditions.

However, the multi-engine pilot is TWO engine failures away from a forced landing at night. The single engine pilot, therefore, has less safety margin, since a single failure will put him in the rocks.

Safety and error margin are the same only when pilot skill is the deciding factor.

For example, if engine-out performance in a twin is so marginal that pilot technique makes the difference between climbing or not, then they are the same.

But, safety margin can also be discussed in terms of the operation's ability to overcome systems failures or powerplant loss. If the elevator jams on most aircraft, you are definitely in for a challenging remainder of the fight.

If there is an elevator jam in many transport category aircraft, they can be separated and control, while somewhat diminished, can be much more easily maintained.

As long as I'm being long winded, I'll put safety margin this way.

If you found yourself in an airplane that had a failure of a wing attach fitting due to a materials failure, would you rather be in a Bonanza or a Cirrus (with the ballistic parachute)?
 
FL000 said:
I saw that movie Always. It don't look so tough to me.
Yeah, if Holly Hunter can do it, I ought to be able to pull it off with no sweat. :D
 
avbug:

Are those retardant drops effective at containing and extinguishing fires? Whenever I see them on TV, it looks like most of the dump evaporates, and what does reach the ground is insignificant compared to the amount of fire. Can you explain how this works?
 
Secks,

There are many different types of fires, types of fuels, rates of spread and burn, etc. There are also many ways to fight fire. Going direct, meaning putting the retardant directly on the fire, is often not the best way to do it, for a number of reasons.

To answer your question about effectiveness going direct, one must consider the fire. I've worked many fires in which flame length was 300', with high or extreme activity. Nothing will put out a fire like that, with temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees, trees exploding, and fire whorls (tornado-type manifestations made of fire). Such fires are too hot; they're preheating other fuels, and even if we could apply something to make a dent, the radiation heat has already affected other fuels ahead of the flame front. It would be like trying to juggle water.

Much of the time we're modifying the burn. We may be pretreating a ridgeline, for example. We're going to direct where the fire will go, alter it's course or work it to a natural barrier and stop it there. We may be building safe zones for ground troops, or reinforcing handcrew handlines or dozer lines, to prevent the fire from spotting past them. Sometimes ground crews will be backfiring, or starting a fire to put out a fire, and we're supporting their firing operation.

The retardant is a thick, slimy concoction with salts, phosphates,and other chemicals in it. It coats a fuel, and does several things. It can serve to cool a fire, but that's not our primary use. Nothing as you see it actually burns. It vaporizes, and the vapor burns. It's part of the burning process, or pyrolosis. By placing a barrier against the fuel, we're reducing or stopping the vaporization, or gassing process. We're putting in a thermal barrier that helps prevent the fuel from igniting. The retardant doesn't evaporate easily, and when the moisture in the retardant is gone, the chemical is still attached to the fuel. If the fuel does ignite, it can slow the burn rate.

When it rains later, the chemical is partially washed off, and acts as a fertilizer to aid in regrowth. That's the purpose of the phosphates and other chemicals in the retardant.

The retardant also has fugitive color, or the red color you see on television. This serves to help us see where the retardant went, judge wind drift, look for gaps in the line, etc. It helps us build line, when one airplane tags on to another airplane's drop to build a protective line outside the burn, or on the burn.

When watching a drop in person or on television, you see a lot of mist, but it's different to be on the ground, or even looking straight down. A lot more of the chemical is on the drop line than you might think. Often when I drop and pull off, a shiny wet slick can be seen reflecting on the target. I've gone back on occasion and walked the drop line, and it's still sticky or slimy two days later. I've examined the line for consistency, coverage, etc, and it really is some good, uniform coverage.

We're trying to avoid shadowing when we drop. That occurs when the drop is too low; the retardant is still moving forward, and it covers one side of the fuel. It leaves the other side unprotected. To avoid that, we drop high enough let the retardant stop it's forward motion and begin to mist and fall straight down. The type of fuel, wind conditions, amount of chemical being dropped, coverage level, terrain conditions, and other factors determine how high we'll be doing that. We may need to be lower with a high coverage level, meaning that we're putting out a lot of chemical at once, to penetrate tree canopies or fuels to get to the fire.

Other times, we are going direct on the fire. I've seen retardant work very effectively. I've done initial attack on several fires this year in which the retardant stopped the burn cold. Ordinarily we don't attack the head of the fire, or the most active part of the fire, because there's a danger of splitting it and make it worse. But on some occasions that's appropriate. By splitting a load and running a line at angles across the head of the fire with several drops, it can be contained or stopped. On several occasions this year, that's happened dramatically.

That's probably a lot longer answer than you wanted, but retardant drops can be very effective. It's a matter of using them properly. They can be wasted, too...but that's part of what they pay us for...making sure it's used effectively. Flying the airplane is important, but part of the reason it takes so long to train someone (years) isn't just the flying; it's the firefighting experience. The idea is that we're not just there to dump on the fire, we're there to employ sound fire tactics as a tool to be used on the fire; just like a McLeod or Pulaski, chainsaw, or shovel. We're just another tool...but often a very effective one.
 
It should be clear as day that the type of flying Avbug is describing is inherently more dangerous than jet passenger ops. But, getting back to my opening statement, I would admit that if he is very skillfull he may well be safer than a marginally skilled pax jet pilot.

True, the flying is much more dangerous. That says nothing about the pilot, though. In my opinion, a skilled pilot in any type operation is safer than the marginally skilled pilot in an inherently safer operation. The best asset any of us has is right between our ears. Almost always, the skilled pilot is capable of thinking and not just acting by rote. He has a plan for whatever unusual circumstance might arise. He takes a deep breath, analyzes the situation, and acts accordingly. If the circumstance is beyond the normal day-to-day experience of the marginal pilot he is immediately behind the airplane. A marginally skilled pilot in any type operation makes that operation potentially less safe. I don't care how inherently safe his operation is, he's put himself in a prime position to reach the crash site.

Having flown as an F-4 backseater in an operation that was inherently dangerous ( 100' up to 600+ kts) I flew with some of the most amazingly incredible, skilled, and creative people I've ever seen in the cockpit of an airplane. Most of those guys flew airliners during the week. They obviously didn't bring their Guard flying over to the airline world with them and rip around, max performing the airplane, with 200 scared and confused pax on board. No, they adjusted to the task at hand. I can promise you their Guard flying certainly made them safer pilots, too. I don't care how inherently dangerous a type of flying may be, nobody in America is hiring kamikazes.

I have always enjoyed reading Avbug's postings. He is very thorough in clearly explaining something he knows a lot about. Unlike myself, I've never seen a post of his that didn't show an obvious command of the subject matter.
 
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avbug said:
That's probably a lot longer answer than you wanted, but retardant drops can be very effective.

Not at all, your response was very enlightening. I had no idea that so much goes into fighting fires from the air. Thanks.
 
Having given this whole thread some good thought, the mention of SEALs provides me with an illustration to be thought about.

There are many reasons why certain tactics of the military are not known to the public. Certain tactics the military uses to get things done may not look ethical or safe, but are, however, exercised with precise adherence to regulations and procedures. If they were seen by someone who has no idea what to expect, or has their own idea of how to safely achieve the objective, it would be perceived as an unsafe, unethical exercise. Avbug's profession and other types of flying are the SEAL type flying, general practices not known to the public or other pilots, which are therefore seen a foreign and unsafe. I almost guarantee that I am more dangerous in the right seat of a 172 than Avbug is the left seat of whatever it is he flys.

People use the term professionalism loosely. And many do not know the real meaning of the word.

I see Avbug's points, and see the others points. When I look at the picture at the beginning of the thread, it does indeed look unsafe. However, is it unsafe to use the entire length of a 10,000 ft runway to takeoff, given that you have gone over all the performance data?
 
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