Holding question

jkkdca

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Guy I was flying with said some people like to hurry into the hold because they think if they get there first they will exit first. When we are issued the hold is our place already set for exiting or are there tricks we pilots can use to get a lesser wait?

I told him I thought since we are issued EFC's it doesn't matter how fast we get there.

Thanks for any replies.
 

Flyin2low

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I always try to go as slow as possible, so I won't have to hold as long.

I heard that if you taxi at 60 knots+ to the runway you can takeoff before everyone else too.
 

avbug

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Hard to figure out the original poster is serious or not, because the question is tantamount to asking "if you stand in line in walmart and stand agressively, will you get to the front any sooner?"

Ah, no.

A hold is a wait..you're waiting at a point in space. Unless you're a rotorwing aircraft you won't be hovering there, so you fly a holding pattern. Well enough...but you're still holding at a point in space. Does it make any difference that you hold at a faster airspeed or a slower airspeed? That really depends how much room you wan to take up and how much fuel you want to burn, doesn't it?

If you're standing in line, you're standing in line. You can't "stand harder" or "stand faster." You simply stand. A hold is standing in place, waiting to be told you can go. You can do it fast, slow, with your legs crossed, or with one hand in a trash bucket and the other making small circles over your left ear, if you like...but you're still in the hold.
 

Seadogrun

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I think what he is trying to ask is: is it first to enter the hold, the first to exit?

For example if an airport shuts down for weather and everyone gets clearances to hold at point x, most slow down to decrease hold times. If HE hurries to the hold point and beats everyone that would normally be in front of him do they take him out of the hold first?

There are many reasons that this doesn't make sense, but I'll let the pro's tell him about it.
 
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nightfr8er

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It has always been my experience that, if you're on an airway or arrival that has a lot of traffic on it into a busy airport, you've already been sequenced for arrival on that route long before you get to the holding fix. So, it doesn't matter how fast you get to the fix. It normally goes that the aircraft at the lower altitude in the hold gets cleared out first also. Unless you're holding at CCC into JFK, and an A340 from Europe comes in. He's probably got less diversion fuel and options than you - so he's gonna get priority. It is what it is. :)
 

Mach 80

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Why is it necessary to report entering the hold while in radar contact...with the time no less?
 

nosehair

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Why is it necessary to report entering the hold while in radar contact...with the time no less?
This is just my 'guess'. Doesn't really matter to me if it's right or not; it's the law and it makes it reasonable to me.

Normally, in radar contact, ATC sequences by headings, like a big traffic pattern. But when the pattern gets to big, they put somebody on hold. That puts him out of the pattern and out of mind. In other words, the report is to bring you back into the controllers mind as a part of the bigger picture that he is working.
 

Mach 80

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Nosehair,

My point is WHY "it's the law" (or rather, in the AIM)

Believe me, the controller doesn't need a reminder of what's going on. He has data strips, and assigns you holding and sees you enter on radar, so why is it in the AIM to report entering when in radar contact? Most of the time in the holding airspace, the controller is already swamped and every time when I report entering holding, the controller acknowledges but you can tell from his tone that he is trying to do something else (coordinating with the next controller or whatever) and considers the call a nuisance.

I find many things in the AIM outdated. It desperately is in need of a complete re-write.
 

nosehair

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the controller doesn't need a reminder of what's going on.
You'll have to have an actual contoller confirm my theory, but in my years of experience, I have been 'forgotton' a few times. Maybe not actually 'forgotten', but when the vectored traffic is so heavy, he just has to 'prioritize' his working traffic so that you remind him.

You are probably right that most times it is a nusiance, and the overloaded controller tells it in his voice, but....

Like the requirement to report leaving an assigned altitude; I am of the old school before radar, so it is ingrained in me, but I know most pilots don't do it any more, relying on the mode c txpnder, but, every once in a blue moon, the 'leaving altitude' call catches a mistake. A mistake in communication that could be deadly.

To me, because it is hardwired into my system, I see these AIM calls as additional insurance and not a nuisance at all. To you, and everyone trained in a radar environment, you see these calls as absolutely unnecessary.

I think it calls for some judgement on each call.
 

Stifler's Mom

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Nosehair,

My point is WHY "it's the law" (or rather, in the AIM)

Believe me, the controller doesn't need a reminder of what's going on. He has data strips, and assigns you holding and sees you enter on radar, so why is it in the AIM to report entering when in radar contact? Most of the time in the holding airspace, the controller is already swamped and every time when I report entering holding, the controller acknowledges but you can tell from his tone that he is trying to do something else (coordinating with the next controller or whatever) and considers the call a nuisance.

I find many things in the AIM outdated. It desperately is in need of a complete re-write.
Mach 80,

What was the response you received from the FAA? I'm sure you have contacted them if these topics are causing you this much pain in your daily routine at work, right?
 

Mach 80

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>>>What was the response you received from the FAA? I'm sure you have contacted them if these topics are causing you this much pain in your daily routine at work, right?<<<

I may ask a controller sometime if flying at 3am and I'm the only aircraft on the frequency. Maybe ask a few of them to get a consensus. In the meantime, who said this was causing me any pain? I was just curious about the need since usually the same controller who gives you the holding and is watching you on the radar is the same one you are telling you are entering holding. So again - no "pain" just curiousity and wondering if it's just an unnecessary carry over from the non-radar days. Usually the frequency is busy enough without telling the controller what he already knows - thus the question.
 

nosehair

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usually the same controller who gives you the holding and is watching you on the radar is the same one you are telling you are entering holding.
There's that word, "usually"...
Yeah, you're right, 'most' times it is a pain in the a**neck. Probably hundreds of times a day, this aggrevation is visited on the poor controller, and pilot, but maybe once or twice a year, it saves a collision. You make your own choice, or risk management.

Find out if a controller has ever avoided a mistake by hearing a 'entering holding' call.
 

ALIMBO

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Guy I was flying with said some people like to hurry into the hold because they think if they get there first they will exit first. When we are issued the hold is our place already set for exiting or are there tricks we pilots can use to get a lesser wait?

I told him I thought since we are issued EFC's it doesn't matter how fast we get there.

Thanks for any replies.
Can you say min. fuel? That will get you outta there faster.
 
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When I'm driving down the road and I see a traffic light turn amber, I always accelerate. That way, I'm first at the red light. It's a good thing I don't have a brake temperature indicating system in my car!
 
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