hmmm

[greenpickle]

Confused

Man...I use to think monkeys were cool.

 

[SaladShooter]

Don,

That was one of the funniest things I have read in awhile. The ironic thing about your post is it is almost correct in its assesment of the piloting profession. But please lets keep it a secret, if managment reads this they will see that paying a monkey 4 bushels of bananas to push a tube trough the sky is much cheaper than a human pilot. Of course if JO has his way he will find monkeys to do it for 2 bushels a day and oppurtunity to upgrade quickley.

 

[Looking4Traffic]

Let the passenger decide:

Gate Agent to Customers:

"Ladies and gentleman, we at Reasonable Person Airlines want you to know that you have a choice. To my left is First Officer Jones. To my right is First Officer Smith. One of these pilots will be flying your leg to St. Louis, where the weather is down to 1/2 mile visibility in thunderstorms and heavy rain showers.

"Mr. Jones is paid $17,000 per year and has 10 days off per month. He works at Home Depot during those ten days to supplement his income and to support his young family. Mr. Smith is paid $45,000 per year and has 14 days off per month. He only has to work four of those days at Home Depot to supplement his income.

"Now, if you want tired, worn out, frustrated Mr. Jones to be your pilot, there will be no additional charge. If you want rested, optimistic Mr. Smith to be your pilot, it will cost each of you 30 passengers an additional $1.62.

"Can we have a show of hands? Which monkey do you want taking your 40,000 pound airplane down to minimums at well over 100 miles per hour?"

I know which guy I'd choose to sit in the jumpseat with.

For those of you interested in how I came up with the insulting $1.62 figure, take the average number of days you fly in each month (16?) and multiply it by the average number of legs you fly each day (3?) and multiply that number by 12 months. Total is 576 legs per year. Divide that number into 28,000 (the difference in salary between Smith and Jones) to get 48.6 extra dollars per leg. Divide that number by the average number of passengers/leg on a 50 seat RJ (70% capacity average?) -- I said 30 passengers -- to get a total of $1.62 per passenger per leg.

If you don't agree with my numbers, use your own. You'll still be shocked at how little extra your airline would have to charge to give its pilots a respectable salary. If you figure that the average schmuck is paying $250 for his/her seat, the 1.62 represents approximately 3/4 of 1%. How much do you think the pretzels cost (and they're just making everybody fat)?

Bottom line is that management views pilots as just another example of supply and demand economics -- there's a much higher supply then demand so, in their mind, there is no motivation to increase salaries to a respectable level. Aggravating the problem is an apparent willingness by many pilots, and pilot groups, to accept lower and lower salaries (the race to the bottom), justifying their decision on some expectation that they'll make captain faster or get to the major airlines faster or simply be part of an airline with more sustainable growth.

My solutions:

(1) a campaign to educate the public that respectable salaries and reasonable working conditions are safety issues; and

(2) a concerted effort (union or otherwise) to coalesce pilots groups so that each group views contract issues as affecting all pilots, not just one company's pilots. Stated differently, we should all be working together to meet a common goal.

My .02 (which I'm currently only getting paid .002 to pontificate.)

 

[Ben Dover]

The way I see it...

RichO, you ask a complex question. There are no simple answers. Here's a possibility I often consider.

There are huge barriers to leaving your airline job. Why? Seniority (i.e. equals pay, schedule...QOL). We (airline pilots) think the seniority system is all about improving OUR lives. There is a flip side that is a huge benefit to managment. Pilots don't leave unless they retire, jump to major, or have some other really good opportunity. Managment doesn't have to treat us that well because WE'VE ALL BUT LOCKED OURSELVES IN! Management isn't keeping us down, we've done it too ourselves!

Now before anyone flames away, grow a brain cell. I'm NOT advocating we throw out seniority. I'm just saying we might look for ways to facilitate mobility in our profession. Other skilled professionals get hired, fired, quit, move on, without having to start completely over. Why should we be any different? Just something to think about...

 

[acaTerry]

Require a BA degree to be a commercial pilot, require a master’s degree to become an ATP pilot.

Great idea whiz kid. Now we can have MBA's running airplanes like we have MBA's running medicine....SCREWING IT UP!!!!


The bottom line is flying isn't that hard. Programming an FMS is child’s play compared to computer programming

Spoken like a truly uninformed idiot. Try doing "child's play" while copying ATIS, figuring out the taxi route, having CS ask if you are ready to board, coordinating a DMI with MX and dispatch, briefing, etc.....
Fact is, at 5 p.m. you go home if your programming is not done. No time constraint, no weather, no crew coordination, nothing but you and your cubicle.
When you are an airline pilot, especially in the CA seat, you will see that just because you can teach in your little putt-putt plane does NOT give you the right to deem us unworthy of a fair living.
I have my college degree, big deal. All your fix will do is make little overeducated $hits like yourself take jobs from those of us who EARNED it.

Go to he11.

 

[RegionalFA]

Re: Let the passenger decide:

Gate Agent to Customers:

"Ladies and gentleman, we at Reasonable Person Airlines want you to know that you have a choice. To my left is First Officer Jones. To my right is First Officer Smith. One of these pilots will be flying your leg to St. Louis, where the weather is down to 1/2 mile visibility in thunderstorms and heavy rain showers.

"Mr. Jones is paid $17,000 per year and has 10 days off per month. He works at Home Depot during those ten days to supplement his income and to support his young family. Mr. Smith is paid $45,000 per year and has 14 days off per month. He only has to work four of those days at Home Depot to supplement his income.

"Now, if you want tired, worn out, frustrated Mr. Jones to be your pilot, there will be no additional charge. If you want rested, optimistic Mr. Smith to be your pilot, it will cost each of you 30 passengers an additional $1.62.

"Can we have a show of hands? Which monkey do you want taking your 40,000 pound airplane down to minimums at well over 100 miles per hour?"

I know which guy I'd choose to sit in the jumpseat with.

For those of you interested in how I came up with the insulting $1.62 figure, take the average number of days you fly in each month (16?) and multiply it by the average number of legs you fly each day (3?) and multiply that number by 12 months. Total is 576 legs per year. Divide that number into 28,000 (the difference in salary between Smith and Jones) to get 48.6 extra dollars per leg. Divide that number by the average number of passengers/leg on a 50 seat RJ (70% capacity average?) -- I said 30 passengers -- to get a total of $1.62 per passenger per leg.

If you don't agree with my numbers, use your own. You'll still be shocked at how little extra your airline would have to charge to give its pilots a respectable salary. If you figure that the average schmuck is paying $250 for his/her seat, the 1.62 represents approximately 3/4 of 1%. How much do you think the pretzels cost (and they're just making everybody fat)?

Bottom line is that management views pilots as just another example of supply and demand economics -- there's a much higher supply then demand so, in their mind, there is no motivation to increase salaries to a respectable level. Aggravating the problem is an apparent willingness by many pilots, and pilot groups, to accept lower and lower salaries (the race to the bottom), justifying their decision on some expectation that they'll make captain faster or get to the major airlines faster or simply be part of an airline with more sustainable growth.

My solutions:

(1) a campaign to educate the public that respectable salaries and reasonable working conditions are safety issues; and

(2) a concerted effort (union or otherwise) to coalesce pilots groups so that each group views contract issues as affecting all pilots, not just one company's pilots. Stated differently, we should all be working together to meet a common goal.

My .02 (which I'm currently only getting paid .002 to pontificate.)

well, i don't see the captain that's been doing it for several years as rested and even less so "optimistic"

Optimistic is usually the Naive Mr. Jones FO who still thinks it's all going to be worth it in the long run

also, your math doesn't necessarily work for regionals. Why? For example, CHQ doesn't book their own flights. They receive a fee for operating the flight. Then, the mainline carrier, who doesn't have anything to do with the pilot pay, sets ticket prices and books the flight.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Idiot Don proposes the ultimate PFT.

ACA Terry NAILS IT! (Love you, man!)


Don, have you considered that the reason flying seems so easy is that you don't know how much you don't know? My guess is yes.

My college degree has not made me a better pilot at all.

I'm so sorry that you needed this kind of 'guidance' to improve your flying skills.


As long as you are proposing an ENTIRELY ARBITRARY method of weeding out pilots, why not do it by physical appearance.

Assemble a panel of random airline passengers, parade pilot hopefuls out in front of them, and ask questions like:

Ques #1) Does applicant 'A' convey a sense of security and professionalism to you. Does he look 'Captainy' enough?

Focus group answer: Hmmm - too nerdy looking, needs a squarer jaw and steelier eyes. Nice deep voice, though.


Ques #2) What do think of this one? Should we make him a captain or copilot.

Focus group answer: Not enough grey hair, too short also. First officer definitely.


Don, you really blew it on this one.

Sincerely, A CONCERNED COLLEGE GRADUATE.

 

[Looking4Traffic]

REGIONAL FA:

Do me a favor.

Read my last posting again. Then ask someone to come in and read your response to my posting.

If that person agrees that you make any sense at all, then I promise I will try to understand what you're talking about.

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: Let the passenger decide:

Gate Agent to Customers:

"Ladies and gentleman, we at Reasonable Person Airlines want you to know that you have a choice. To my left is First Officer Jones. To my right is First Officer Smith. One of these pilots will be flying your leg to St. Louis, where the weather is down to 1/2 mile visibility in thunderstorms and heavy rain showers.

"Mr. Jones is paid $17,000 per year and has 10 days off per month. He works at Home Depot during those ten days to supplement his income and to support his young family. Mr. Smith is paid $45,000 per year and has 14 days off per month. He only has to work four of those days at Home Depot to supplement his income.

"Now, if you want tired, worn out, frustrated Mr. Jones to be your pilot, there will be no additional charge. If you want rested, optimistic Mr. Smith to be your pilot, it will cost each of you 30 passengers an additional $1.62.

"Can we have a show of hands? Which monkey do you want taking your 40,000 pound airplane down to minimums at well over 100 miles per hour?"

I'd respond by asking the gate agent that since RP Airlines is selling "Rested, Optimistic Pilots" for $1.62 above rock bottom, for an extra $100.oo can I get two "Really Cute, Sexy Girl Pilots" to fly me instead?

 

[Don]

Ok guys.. I've used an FMS and I've programmed in C++, SQL, VB, PERL and a host of other languages.

The FMS is MUCH easier. And yes I have managed to listen to ATIS, get a clearance, read it back AND put the flight plan in ALL at the same time. ITS NOT THAT HARD. If it were people would not get through pilot factories and into an RJ in a year or two. Maybe its just hard for YOU.

And BTW, just as we might infer that someone with no education does not value it, we might also infer that someone who is overweight and wearing wrinkled clothes lacks attention to detail. So I suppose we could weed out the uneducated slobs with anger issues that can't manage to do three things at the same time. Or is it that education and appearance are not arbitrary. Hair color is an example of an arbitrary trait if you are still confused.

Over educated little snot nosed good for nothin signing out and try to lighten up guys!