History repeats itself. Pilots start thinking DOH matters

[FLYLOW22]

The only solution that will eventually work to return some leverage to pilots will be to have a national seniority list. One round of negotiations... one strike.

Nobody will take this game back but you.

Gotta hit bottom first I guess. Give it another 10 years maybe.

No more A320s... B737s. Just an armada of C1000s and E195s with kids flying for pennies.

Not even SWA pilots will be immune then...

Well, I guess there's always law school.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The only solution that will eventually work to return some leverage to pilots will be to have a national seniority list. One round of negotiations... one strike.

Nobody will take this game back but you.

Gotta hit bottom first I guess. Give it another 10 years maybe.

No more A320s... B737s. Just an armada of C1000s and E195s with kids flying for pennies.

Not even SWA pilots will be immune then...

Well, I guess there's always law school.

One list will never happen. There are too many "I've got mine" people in this business.
Then there are the rjdc types.
Good idea, bad timing. Should have happened 30 years ago before this can o worms was opened.

 

[FLYLOW22]

One list will never happen. There are too many "I've got mine" people in this business.
Then there are the rjdc types.
Good idea, bad timing. Should have happened 30 years ago before this can o worms was opened.

JMHO but... the time is coming where those that DON'T have will greatly outnumber those that do.

A few more years of simmering may be required... who knows. One thing is for certain... If the scope for the 100 seaters is lost, kiss narrow body flying goodbye.

Certification and seniority... if these two animals are tamed, there is hope.

Certification for the ATP Certificate needs to be something that is earned along the same protocol as the Bar Exam for legal or medical professionals.

Once the certification of ATP is a controlled commodity, not a weekend project.

Seniority is the other bug a boo to be addressed. Plenty of opinions on this but a method that allows for 1st in last out seniority is the only way to go.

**Now, before you cry out "BUT WHAT ABOUT ME??!!!! I GOT MINE!!!"... here's the key.

If we can all get past the archaic concept of negotiating CBAs for individual groups that can be pitted and are pitted against each other then we can entertain the concept of negotiating Pay, working conditions, RETIREMENT, scheduling, etc. for all ATP pilots.

Yes... ticket prices would increase. No, not every passenger that flies now will be able to afford the ticket prices.

Who cares. Flying is not a public right.

We establish what we are worth as professionals from Cape Air to Fed Ex. If there are bogus business plans that cannot afford us as pilots, they will perish. Pilots will be placed at another company according to a national bid.
One big group. One huge piece of leverage.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

JoeMerchant:
Have you had a chance to read the Nicolau Award? In it he clearly explains his reasoning which would answer your questions.

The answer is that on a certain date (snapshot) one can see how many airplane deliveries are scheduled and determine how much hiring is required. That's all there is to it.

If that is your method, then the airline world is probably a terrible place for you. Airlines change this stuff everyday.

Your method does not distinguish between a merger affecting this "snapshot" or a drop in demand causing a drop in deliveries or parking of planes.

 

[becket]

Yeah I noticed.

No sh*t. You'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to NOT know that USAPA's bargaining position on seniority is the one and only NIC award.

USAPA issued a statement recognizing that fact. Where is the Stay that Seham requested from the 9th months ago?

Nowhere.

 

[TWA Dude]

If that is your method...

It's not my method, it's this:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations

And it's what Nicolau used to craft his seniority list.

 

[FDJ2]

Longevity in this business is also a very definable equity.....

Longevity is an equity, just not nearly as valuable as the job brought to the merger.

 

[michael707767]

What exactly do you mean "the value of the job you bring to the merger?" How do figure that out?

Define it how you want. A job flying a 737 at 150K a year is more valuable than a job flying an RJ at 100K a year.

Now if you have a merger whereby all equipment will pay the same post merger, then you could argue that a 737 job is not more valuable than an RJ job.

Reminds me of when the CMR/ASA pilots tried the PID with Delta. A CMR pilot tried to tell me the list should go DOH, and that it would not affect me that much since there were not that many CMR/ASA pilots who had been there longer than I had been at Delta. I told him that they may as well hire someone off the street and put him on the seniority list senior to me.....the affect would be the same. A CMR pilot put on the list ahead of me would not have been bringing a more valuable job.

I don't care if a pilot ends up ahead of me in any merger as long as they bring a job that is aheaed of mine.

 

[General Lee]

General, you need to go back and do some research...That Southern pilot that hired into the Metro wasn't "stapled" to the bottom of the NWA list, and they weren't "stapled" to the bottom of the Delta list....

I'm not interested in "merging" with you....I work for a very profitable company....I'm just bringing some facts to the debate...

Me do research? Look at the current arbitration cases, and that is how it will be from now on. It's all about what you bring to the table, and what you CAN make in the future. BTW, I was stating that the Metro pilot, had he been one during a merger with a larger airline with larger planes, WOULD HAVE BEEN STAPLED back then.

And, your "profitable" company is parking jets, and maybe leasing some to some outfit in Vietnam. Maybe profitable isn't the word I would use, rather "desperate." Now they are searching for anyone to take the 50 seaters, and it looks like it tacked some on to one of the most "desperate" legacies out there. Please try to debate that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Deadalus]

Well, for all those pilots who bashed the so called pathetic 17 year F/O at USAIR. Guess what. American will have them and so will United. Just to list a few. A long time ago USAIR had fast upgrades and many chose Piedmont for their growth.

Another airline like that is Jetblue. They will have almost no upgrades unless they grow. Jetblue reminds me of Piedmont. 2-3 years difference was all it took to become a longtime F/O. No big age differences between F/O and Capt.

Sadly, if one continues to merge your relative position will stagnant and younger pilots with many years less will get in front of you. What to do? Quit and go to Republic for a fast upgrade. I do not think so.

A CAL United merger would be a disaster for United F/O's. United pilots would be in the same boat as East USAIR pilots. With DOH everyone gets a chance and will not be taken to the cleaners. DOH is fair. The problem is the greed and entitlement that often shows gets in the way. Management loves merging with younger less paid pilots. Less captains with higher pay.

Seniority matters. We all know that airlines merge and mangament likes merging with new and younger lower paid pilots. Demand DOH and stop the insanity of discounting your DOH. Its all you have.

Somewhere in your career it will make sense. Just ask the Piedmont pilots at USAIR that did not want DOH.

Mcdoosh just get over it. You're not getting career advancement at the expense of others. SR-71? Yeah right and the girl in you're avatar wasn't copied off a porn site. Loooossseeerrrrr.