Historical pilot pay?

[TOGA]

Anyone have any actual pay numbers going back a long way? 707s in the late Sixties? 727s in the early eighties? Further back than that? Connies in the Fifties? I have a pretty good grasp on the actual numbers starting in the Nineties . . . anything else would be helpful. Thanks!

 

[SWAdude]

Anyone have any actual pay numbers going back a long way? 707s in the late Sixties? 727s in the early eighties? Further back than that? Connies in the Fifties? I have a pretty good grasp on the actual numbers starting in the Nineties . . . anything else would be helpful. Thanks!

This is a great question.

I hope you get some answers.

 

[warbirdfinder]

In 1967 at the time of the PNA WAL merger, Connie captains were making a little under $25,000/year. WAL captains were making $25,000/year on the Electra.
First year pay for a L-749 F/E at PNA was $500/month with a $50/month override if you were based in Anchorage.

First year pay at Zantop in 1965 on the C-46 for a copilot was $425/month; $200.00 base pay and $225.00 for mileage pay (Mileage pay was 2 1/4 cents per mile for the first 10,000 miles). Figure about 140 knots cruise. Anything over 10,000 miles was paid at 2 1/4 cents/mile. There were FAR limits of 100 hours per month, but the company would pay whatever you flew, which could be as high as 125 hours/month.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

1969 Convair 580 Capt. 35,000

 

[The_Russian]

Average salary back then was close to $8000 a year or something like that.

 

[gringo]

1969 Convair 580 Capt. 35,000

Adjusted for inflation, that amounts to $185,848.60

In 1967 at the time of the PNA WAL merger, Connie captains were making a little under $25,000/year. WAL captains were making $25,000/year on the Electra.

Adjusted for inflation, that amounts to $142,335.87


I'll let you figure out what that actually means.

 

[Patriot328]

I'll let you figure out what that actually means.

That flying a 50 seat rj around for 70,000 (any any other aircraft for current salary) is a little underpaid?

 

[Green]

I read (could be wrong) that in 1980 a senior 747 captain at NWA made about 200k/year. Adjusted for inflation that is over $500,000 in todays dollars....ouch

The erosion in the pilot profession continues. An interesting sidenote at ABX a DC-9 captain still makes about 199/hr. Compare that to JBlue or AAA emb-190 payrates.

 

[CRACKHEAD]

The future pilot pay

According to this trend, I predict that in the year 2020 a senior B777 captain will be paying their company $100/hr to fly passengers simply because they love to fly.

Pilots are the only ones to blame for these rediculous wages.

 

[Going2Baja]

In 1941 when my dad started with Pan Am, he made $200 per month flying the China Clipper. 1945 DC-3 Capt $600 per month. In 1980 at retirement it was $100K a year on the 747-200 doing 2 trips per month LAX-London UK.

In 1988 I started at Scenic at $550 per month.

Baja.

 

[Scrapdog]

Pilots are the only ones to blame for these rediculous wages.[/quote]

Shack! You are spot on. If dudes continue to accept horrible wages to fly airliners, why would management need to raise wages? The labor pool is full of guys that think flying an airliner is the pinnacle of aviation and would do it for next to nothing just to wear the uniform and roll their pubs kit back and forth between the airport food courts.

 

[JerkyHerky]

Yes, I too have always had dreams and visions of striding through the airport concourse arm and arm with the stews and signing autographs for little kids who hold me up as a role model. In 2000 I stooped so low as to accept an invitation of employment from some bottom feeding trash hauler, I think the name is FedEx, and I've been kicking myself for making such a poor decision ever since.

 

[Scrapdog]

Yes, I too have always had dreams and visions of striding through the airport concourse arm and arm with the stews and signing autographs for little kids who hold me up as a role model. In 2000 I stooped so low as to accept an invitation of employment from some bottom feeding trash hauler, I think the name is FedEx, and I've been kicking myself for making such a poor decision ever since.

Jerky - good on ya. I've got a few squadron brethren who made the same choice as yourself and have not looked back since.

 

[vetteracer]

According to this trend, I predict that in the year 2020 a senior B777 captain will be paying their company $100/hr to fly passengers simply because they love to fly.

Pilots are the only ones to blame for these rediculous wages.

I agree, nobody makes you become a pilot. Regional saleries will change when guys start laughing uncontrollably in the interview and get up and walk out laughing. BAAAAAAAHHH Did you day 20K to start?? AAAHHHHHHAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA.

How long would it take when they had nobody to fly there planes would pay go up.

But, there are guys out there that think their are shortcuts in this industry, and then wonder why the pay is so bad, even after they move up in the industry.

Give me a uniform, a hat, and a shinny jet and I will fly for free. Then when the glitter wears off, they are mad about the pay.

BLAME YOURSELF.

 

[SWAdude]

In 1980 at retirement it was $100K a year on the 747-200 doing 2 trips per month LAX-London UK.


Baja.

$244K in todays dollars.

http://www.aier.org/research/col.php

 

[Going2Baja]

In 1941 when my dad started with Pan Am, he made $200 per month flying the China Clipper.
Baja.

Yep....And a conversion to $32,808 for the starting pay at PAA in 1941 of $200/month is spot on for todays starting salaries. Hmmmmmmmmnnnnnnn??????

Baja.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

<steps up on soapbox>

I have a copy of an old USAir contract from 1984. It is stashed away right now and I cannot get exact figures, but I was reading it about 2 months ago.

The pay rates were very good by todays standards, and this was while the airline was still raking in the money.(Pre Scofield and the next 4 CEO's and the ensuing mismanaged downward spiral) The contract paid in several different ways, Day, night, per mile, seat position, aircraft type, and longevity. It must have been a nightmare for payroll to figure out each month. End result was a company that made money and paid better than airlines twice it's size.

I find it interesting that over the last 6 years we have heard nothing except how pilot pay is killing the airlines from the CEO's.....CEO's that have obscene paychecks.....while the whole time the three airlines that are making the most profit on the planet (FedEx, UPS, And SWA) also pay the pilots the most.

Seems to me that shows that labor payrates are not the blame here, If SWA can consistantly make money hauling people while paying 173 an hour for a top of scale 737 Capt., then the airlines that cannot turn a profit while paying 125 an hour for top of scale captains seem to have a mgmt. problem.....but no that cannot be it right? After all it has nothing to do with mgmt right? SWA just has that darn magic fairy dust that they sprinkle on the wings every night that lets an over paid crew still make money right!!

<steps off of soapbox>

 

[Donsa320]

<steps up on soapbox>

I have a copy of an old USAir contract from 1984. It is stashed away right now and I cannot get exact figures, but I was reading it about 2 months ago.

The pay rates were very good by todays standards, and this was while the airline was still raking in the money.(Pre Scofield and the next 4 CEO's and the ensuing mismanaged downward spiral) The contract paid in several different ways, Day, night, per mile, seat position, aircraft type, and longevity. It must have been a nightmare for payroll to figure out each month. End result was a company that made money and paid better than airlines twice it's size.

I find it interesting that over the last 6 years we have heard nothing except how pilot pay is killing the airlines from the CEO's.....CEO's that have obscene paychecks.....while the whole time the three airlines that are making the most profit on the planet (FedEx, UPS, And SWA) also pay the pilots the most.

Seems to me that shows that labor payrates are not the blame here, If SWA can consistantly make money hauling people while paying 173 an hour for a top of scale 737 Capt., then the airlines that cannot turn a profit while paying 125 an hour for top of scale captains seem to have a mgmt. problem.....but no that cannot be it right? After all it has nothing to do with mgmt right? SWA just has that darn magic fairy dust that they sprinkle on the wings every night that lets an over paid crew still make money right!!

<steps off of soapbox>

Naw, not complicated at all, it just resulted in an hourly rate when all was said and done. The day/night rate applied between 6pm and 6am and viceversa. Your longevity only changed once per year and increases ended at 12 years. At contract negotiation time speed, gross weight and milaege based on pegged speed (red line) were the arguing points. Hence heavier faster airplanes paid better.
As to the night time pay overide I recall once in a DC-3 at 6pm the captain reached up and pulled a couple of inches of manifold pressure off. Noticing my quisical look he patted the throttles and he said "that night air is bad for the engines". Night pay was a couple bucks more per hour.

DC

 

[capt. megadeth]

Pilots are the only ones to blame for these rediculous wages.

Shack! You are spot on. If dudes continue to accept horrible wages to fly airliners, why would management need to raise wages? The labor pool is full of guys that think flying an airliner is the pinnacle of aviation and would do it for next to nothing just to wear the uniform and roll their pubs kit back and forth between the airport food courts.[/quote]

So are you saying you wouldn't come to UPS for $33 an hour? Just curious.

 

[capt. megadeth]

$244K in todays dollars.

http://www.aier.org/research/col.php

Interesting....I would have thought it would be more.

 

[G4G5]

.:smash:

 

[humuakalaka]

Shack, true, pilots are their own worst enemy. However, it's not simply the fact that there are pilots who are willing to work for horrible wages. That is only part of the story. In my opinion, the major reason pilot's wages have decreased so dramatically is that pilots have a completely ineffective organized labor strategy. We have emasculated ourselves with our own narrow vision and shortsightedness.

We pilots have personally handed management the upper hand. Management is thrilled with the way we have hamstrung ourselves. We have devised an organized labor system where pilots have zero portability in our jobs once we have been employed more than a couple of years. At one of my previous airlines, an executive came and spoke to us. He reminded us of this very fact. He seemed to revel in it. He told us that if he loses his job, he can go to another company and make almost as much or even more money. He said that if a pilot loses his job, he has to start again from the bottom. When you think about it, it truly is insane. And, here's the kicker: we did it to ouselves!

For example, what real options did the NWA pilots have when they were recently threatening to strike? If the company shut down, all of the NWA pilots would have to start over from the bottom at some other airline or launch themselves from the beginning into some new career. On the other hand, management at NWA would have simply been forced to look for new jobs at other companies; jobs that would have paid in the ballpark of what they were making at NWA. They were not faced with having to start over. Who had the upper hand? Whose position was more precarious? The pilot group was not in the driver's seat and management knew it. The results speak for themselves. The same was true at United, Delta, Eastern, etc.

Today, building a successful pilot career is much more a matter of luck than anything else. If you're one of the lucky ones who manages to pick a growing, profitable airline that employs you until age 60, then all is well. But then, what if you were one of those guys who went to some airline where all was well and the future was bright. Ten years later, things have taken a nosedive. What do you do? What if you are one of the luckless many who is not able to divine the future? The effects can be devastating for you and your family. Our current union system leaves you with very few viable options. A member of management, conversely, who has realized that he is on a sinking corporate ship can abandon it with nowhere near the penalty that a pilot incurs for doing the same.

And we do this to ourselves? Insanity! This system may have worked well when our grandfathers and fathers flew. However, it is a fatally flawed system that is currently destroying our profession. We must adapt to today's realities. A union system that was designed for the realities of the 1950's and 60's does not serve us well today nearly half a century later. The airline industry's landscape has dramatically changed since then. However, the way we have decided to organize ourselves and fight the battles of today hasn't really changed. We are fighting today's battles with yesterday's weapons. Why? An army that tried to do that would be slaughtered as we are currently being slaughtered in terms of pay, work rules, quality of life, and prestige. Pilots must realize that we are all in this together. We must unify on a national level. We must come together and do what is best for all of us in the 21st century. It is time to put short sightedness behind us. Look at where it has gotten us.

 

[canyonblue]

If dudes continue to accept horrible wages to fly airliners, why would management need to raise wages?

What do you mean dudes? The erosion of labor wages really hit the crapper when women entered the workplace and flooded the job market with an over abundance of willing workers. Since that happened, management has held an upper hand against the workers with a lopsided supply and demand figure. If women had stayed at home we could demand a larger paycheck, and get it. First the vote and then the job market, what will women screw up next for us?


OK, it was all sarcasm but I though Mega would blow a gasket until she read this line.

 

[CRACKHEAD]

Not what I'm saying at all!

So are you saying you wouldn't come to UPS for $33 an hour? Just curious.

I will go to work for UPS, even if the first year pay sucks. Are you going to give me a recomendation?

UPS is on a different pedistal. Those guys are probably one of the highest paid groups in this industry.

 

[STL717]

Shack, true, pilots are their own worst enemy. However, it's not simply the fact that there are pilots who are willing to work for horrible wages. That is only part of the story. In my opinion, the major reason pilot's wages have decreased so dramatically is that pilots have a completely ineffective organized labor strategy. We have emasculated ourselves with our own narrow vision and shortsightedness.

We pilots have personally handed management the upper hand. Management is thrilled with the way we have hamstrung ourselves. We have devised an organized labor system where pilots have zero portability in our jobs once we have been employed more than a couple of years. At one of my previous airlines, an executive came and spoke to us. He reminded us of this very fact. He seemed to revel in it. He told us that if he loses his job, he can go to another company and make almost as much or even more money. He said that if a pilot loses his job, he has to start again from the bottom. When you think about it, it truly is insane. And, here's the kicker: we did it to ouselves!

For example, what real options did the NWA pilots have when they were recently threatening to strike? If the company shut down, all of the NWA pilots would have to start over from the bottom at some other airline or launch themselves from the beginning into some new career. On the other hand, management at NWA would have simply been forced to look for new jobs at other companies; jobs that would have paid in the ballpark of what they were making at NWA. They were not faced with having to start over. Who had the upper hand? Whose position was more precarious? The pilot group was not in the driver's seat and management knew it. The results speak for themselves. The same was true at United, Delta, Eastern, etc.

Today, building a successful pilot career is much more a matter of luck than anything else. If you're one of the lucky ones who manages to pick a growing, profitable airline that employs you until age 60, then all is well. But then, what if you were one of those guys who went to some airline where all was well and the future was bright. Ten years later, things have taken a nosedive. What do you do? What if you are one of the luckless many who is not able to divine the future? The effects can be devastating for you and your family. Our current union system leaves you with very few viable options. A member of management, conversely, who has realized that he is on a sinking corporate ship can abandon it with nowhere near the penalty that a pilot incurs for doing the same.

And we do this to ourselves? Insanity! This system may have worked well when our grandfathers and fathers flew. However, it is a fatally flawed system that is currently destroying our profession. We must adapt to today's realities. A union system that was designed for the realities of the 1950's and 60's does not serve us well today nearly half a century later. The airline industry's landscape has dramatically changed since then. However, the way we have decided to organize ourselves and fight the battles of today hasn't really changed. We are fighting today's battles with yesterday's weapons. Why? An army that tried to do that would be slaughtered as we are currently being slaughtered in terms of pay, work rules, quality of life, and prestige. Pilots must realize that we are all in this together. We must unify on a national level. We must come together and do what is best for all of us in the 21st century. It is time to put short sightedness behind us. Look at where it has gotten us.

Humuakalaka, you just said it all.
I see no opportunity to correct this problem. No one wants a national seniority list. No one wants a national pay scale. No one wants a true national union.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Shack, true, pilots are their own worst enemy. However, it's not simply the fact that there are pilots who are willing to work for horrible wages. That is only part of the story. In my opinion, the major reason pilot's wages have decreased so dramatically is that pilots have a completely ineffective organized labor strategy. We have emasculated ourselves with our own narrow vision and shortsightedness.

We pilots have personally handed management the upper hand. Management is thrilled with the way we have hamstrung ourselves. We have devised an organized labor system where pilots have zero portability in our jobs once we have been employed more than a couple of years. At one of my previous airlines, an executive came and spoke to us. He reminded us of this very fact. He seemed to revel in it. He told us that if he loses his job, he can go to another company and make almost as much or even more money. He said that if a pilot loses his job, he has to start again from the bottom. When you think about it, it truly is insane. And, here's the kicker: we did it to ouselves!

For example, what real options did the NWA pilots have when they were recently threatening to strike? If the company shut down, all of the NWA pilots would have to start over from the bottom at some other airline or launch themselves from the beginning into some new career. On the other hand, management at NWA would have simply been forced to look for new jobs at other companies; jobs that would have paid in the ballpark of what they were making at NWA. They were not faced with having to start over. Who had the upper hand? Whose position was more precarious? The pilot group was not in the driver's seat and management knew it. The results speak for themselves. The same was true at United, Delta, Eastern, etc.

Today, building a successful pilot career is much more a matter of luck than anything else. If you're one of the lucky ones who manages to pick a growing, profitable airline that employs you until age 60, then all is well. But then, what if you were one of those guys who went to some airline where all was well and the future was bright. Ten years later, things have taken a nosedive. What do you do? What if you are one of the luckless many who is not able to divine the future? The effects can be devastating for you and your family. Our current union system leaves you with very few viable options. A member of management, conversely, who has realized that he is on a sinking corporate ship can abandon it with nowhere near the penalty that a pilot incurs for doing the same.

And we do this to ourselves? Insanity! This system may have worked well when our grandfathers and fathers flew. However, it is a fatally flawed system that is currently destroying our profession. We must adapt to today's realities. A union system that was designed for the realities of the 1950's and 60's does not serve us well today nearly half a century later. The airline industry's landscape has dramatically changed since then. However, the way we have decided to organize ourselves and fight the battles of today hasn't really changed. We are fighting today's battles with yesterday's weapons. Why? An army that tried to do that would be slaughtered as we are currently being slaughtered in terms of pay, work rules, quality of life, and prestige. Pilots must realize that we are all in this together. We must unify on a national level. We must come together and do what is best for all of us in the 21st century. It is time to put short sightedness behind us. Look at where it has gotten us.

This is the best post I have ever read in regard to this topic. I have tried putting something like this together on this board and others but am not as eloquant as you are. Great job summerizing the REAL problem. Every pilot should read this.

When pilot groups at various airlines accept lower pay it is a symptom of the real problem, not the problem itself. What can be done? I don't purport to know the answer but here are some of the better ideas I have heard; a national seniority list, a base pay for aircraft types regardless of airline. Converting our "Union" to a guild, etc...

How to implement these ideas I have no idea, but the only way to start would take someone with real forsight, and a true passion to want to better the profession not his pockets. That person would have to somehow make it to the top of ALPA in order to affect real change, but unfortunatly most pilots who aspire to the higher positions of ALPA have altierier motives.

 

[Scrapdog]

So are you saying you wouldn't come to UPS for $33 an hour? Just curious.

Of course I would miss capitan, at the current contract you have. I think almost everyone in aviation would - for the pay you're getting now. It's a job - if the pay is high and the relative workload is low, you take the job. If it's vice, versa, you don't.

 

[pilotyip]

Great paying jobs

Airlines are a business, they have to survive in a financial world, and they must be profitable to attract capital to allow them to grow, buy more airplanes and hire more pilots. Everything you do to raise the salaries will have a down side. If pilots all make 300K/yr, why will FA's work for 30K? why will ramp people work for 20K?, so the prices for tickets will have to go up. Less riders less jobs, who will be the lucky ones to retain their jobs? This is the same argument used in bringing back regulation of the airlines, to the good ole days of the 70's. There will be a very few really great jobs; the rest of the pilots will work outside of the airline industry. Look at the US shipping industry, great paying jobs, but very very few of them. I suppose I am part of the problem with pilot pay, because when I loose a flying job, and find I can make 30K as school teacher, or 40K as a dept manager at Home Depot, so I take a flying job for 45K. Because that is the most money I can make at the time, plus I like being around airplanes and pilots. The jobs grows and after a few years I find myself still below 100K, but in the upper 90%, of wage earners in the US, and that is doing something I like. What is wrong with that?

 

[Scrapdog]

4 year degree makes the difference

Airlines are a business, they have to survive in a financial world, and they must be profitable to attract capital to allow them to grow, buy more airplanes and hire more pilots. Everything you do to raise the salaries will have a down side. If pilots all make 300K/yr, why will FA's work for 30K? why will ramp people work for 20K?, so the prices for tickets will have to go up. Less riders less jobs, who will be the lucky ones to retain their jobs? This is the same argument used in bringing back regulation of the airlines, to the good ole days of the 70's. There will be a very few really great jobs; the rest of the pilots will work outside of the airline industry. Look at the US shipping industry, great paying jobs, but very very few of them. I suppose I am part of the problem with pilot pay, because when I loose a flying job, and find I can make 30K as school teacher, or 40K as a dept manager at Home Depot, so I take a flying job for 45K. Because that is the most money I can make at the time, plus I like being around airplanes and pilots. The jobs grows and after a few years I find myself still below 100K, but in the upper 90%, of wage earners in the US, and that is doing something I like. What is wrong with that?

Yip - it stems directly from the education and type of degree you have entering today's workforce. If you have a good 4 year degree from a reputable university in some type of management or engineering, there are plenty of job openings at good financial or engineering firms that start you off at 70-90K a year. I just met a young female with a global marketing degree who has recently turned 25 and will be making close to 200K by the end of the year. I know - that's an extreme, but it shows my point. You don't have to accept a crappy wage of 45K a year working 22 days a month if you have a 4 year degree with a solid education, if you don't want too. Guys on the ramp - no offense - typically take the 30K jobs because that's all they can do, i.e. they don't have that same solid education background from a good university.

The great thing about a capatilistic society is typically people are rewarded with higher paying jobs based on their technical ability...i.e. the 4 year degree as a start.

 

[CRACKHEAD]

nip it!

Yip
The great thing about a capatilistic society is typically people are rewarded with higher paying jobs based on their technical ability...i.e. the 4 year degree as a start.

Education has nothing to with what you can make in aviation. The salaries in aviation are a set wage and are not negotiable; either accept the salary or they will find someone that is willing to do it.

This is what the regionals have figured out and have been taking advantage of for the last 20 years or so.

If you were to fill up a room with 100 ERAU grads and asked them, "HOW MANY OF YOU ARE WILLING TO FLY OUR RJ'S FOR MINIMUM WAGE?" 90 of them would raise their hands and the 10 remaining would be shown the door.

This is what has to change. Either we try to get a national seniority list or try to nip it at the source, and the source is flight schools. Schools need to teach pilots about the cause and affect of working for peanuts and the effect on your future pay.

my .02 cents