Hiring @ Southern Air

[Flyer8]

My Mistake...

Sorry about that...You have to excuse the ramblings of us old guys from time to time...It is a contractual thing here at our company...16 hour duty day in the states and 18 hours international...I hope you have better luck with your next employer...I always hate to see people changing jobs...It is always a pain in the ass,even if it is a better job...
Of all the things I have lost in this life,I miss my mind the most!

 

[dakotaHC8]

I've always wondered about the logic behind that caveat in the supplemental duty regs, that a crew of two Pilots + Engineer has less stringent rules than a crew of pilots alone (with an IRO or heavy).

Because with a spare pilot, you can take a break and let him/her fly a shift, but with only an engineer you can get up for a short break, but not a nap. (since only one at the controls).

You think it would be the other way around.

 

[avbug]

If you read closely there is no duty time regs for 3 man crew.

You're talking about two pilots and a flight engineer...a two pilot crew?

No duty time regulations such as 121 Subpart S, 121.505(b), which specifically prescribes duty times for two pilot crews operating under Supplemental?

§ 121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.

(a) If a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.


(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.

And what of the flight engineer? How about 121.511(a)?

§ 121.511 Flight time limitations: Flight engineers: airplanes.

(a) In any operation in which one flight engineer is serving the flight time limitations in §§121.503 and 121.505 apply to that flight engineer.

Yet it doesn't prescribe duty times...as you said. Just flight times. Of couse, a flight engineer flying with two pilots is subject to the same duty times...because they're all in the same cockpit; they land, he lands. And you're talking specifically about duty limitations for pilots, not FE's...duty limitations which are spelled out above in 121.505. So yes, Part 121 does include duty times for thee man crews flying supplemental.

Where Part 121 Subpart S drops the ball, so to speak, is particularly in international operations. The regulation allows alternate compliance with 121.515, and 121.521 through 121.525...which doesn't discuss duty time limitations for any crew configuration.

Your statement that the regulation doesn't provide duty limits is in error. However, it still doesn't help you. Technically, you're incorrect, but still screwed.

 

[dutch747]

You're talking about two pilots and a flight engineer...a two pilot crew?

No duty time regulations such as 121 Subpart S, 121.505(b), which specifically prescribes duty times for two pilot crews operating under Supplemental?



And what of the flight engineer? How about 121.511(a)?



Yet it doesn't prescribe duty times...as you said. Just flight times. Of couse, a flight engineer flying with two pilots is subject to the same duty times...because they're all in the same cockpit; they land, he lands. And you're talking specifically about duty limitations for pilots, not FE's...duty limitations which are spelled out above in 121.505. So yes, Part 121 does include duty times for thee man crews flying supplemental.

Where Part 121 Subpart S drops the ball, so to speak, is particularly in international operations. The regulation allows alternate compliance with 121.515, and 121.521 through 121.525...which doesn't discuss duty time limitations for any crew configuration.

Your statement that the regulation doesn't provide duty limits is in error. However, it still doesn't help you. Technically, you're incorrect, but still screwed.

Well said Avbug. I don't know why you even mention 121.501 thru 513 since everyone uses the alternate 515 thru 525. Interesting note is that 525 talks about duty day limits of 30 hours for augmented (Heavy) crews but no where in the alternate supplemental regs is there a duty day limits for basic crews.

Also to note is that 12 in 24, 20 in 48, 24 in 72 is SCHEDULED. If you exceed any of these through no fault (NOT SCHEDULED) of your own the requirement is only to get 16 hours crew rest.

 

[avbug]

True story.

I brought up the former regulation make the point. My post would have been rather meaningless without it.

 

[mushroom]

Also to note is that 12 in 24, 20 in 48, 24 in 72 is SCHEDULED. If you exceed any of these through no fault (NOT SCHEDULED) of your own the requirement is only to get 16 hours crew rest.

Incorrect, Dutch. The only one of those which is a scheduling issue is the 12 hours in 24 (121.521(a)). 121.521(b) states that if you have been aloft as a crewmember for those other times, you are allowed 18 hours of rest. It does not mention being "scheduled" for any period of time, only "aloft."

 

[dutch747]

Incorrect, Dutch. The only one of those which is a scheduling issue is the 12 hours in 24 (121.521(a)). 121.521(b) states that if you have been aloft as a crewmember for those other times, you are allowed 18 hours of rest. It does not mention being "scheduled" for any period of time, only "aloft."

OK, thanks for correcting me.

 

[27 driver]

You all may be right, but SAI's POI buys off on this type of SH!#. It happens on a regular basis. To be fair, SAI doesn't lie to, screw, or cheat their crews out of money at least 3% of the time. All sarcasm aside, greater than 18 hour duty days happen on a regular basis at SAI. I am tired of arguing about the regs. The fact is that SAI and their POI agree that we have no duty time regulations. That is one of the many reasons my feet are doing the talking.

 

[B747Flyer]

You all may be right, but SAI's POI buys off on this type of SH!#. It happens on a regular basis. To be fair, SAI doesn't lie to, screw, or cheat their crews out of money at least 3% of the time. All sarcasm aside, greater than 18 hour duty days happen on a regular basis at SAI. I am tired of arguing about the regs. The fact is that SAI and their POI agree that we have no duty time regulations. That is one of the many reasons my feet are doing the talking.

Where are you going?

 

[refplusnone]

Where are you going?

Good question.

I took 27's thoughts as pretty reliable. He always had good honest posts regarding SAI, with a good middle ground on what life was like there.

Care to let us know what happened 27 driver?

Ref