Highlight of AA/APA SCOPE Agreement

[wil]

Just a nutty idea- But, what if Delta, Comair and ASA all join hands and we require all flying to be done by us. No contract carriers at all. Wouldn't there be enough flying t go around and no need to furlough? Ok, I'll put down the crack pipe. Comments, come in General Lee-

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP, Surplus1, Flaps30,

Well, I told you so. Man, if Lawson had just welcomed the furloughs with open arms(like a big daddy) this might have been avoided. But no. Dalpa is negotiating to help our furloughs, since Comair and their MEC chair wouldn't. Obviously AA can do whatever they want with their 70 seaters----and I am sure Delta could do the same. Would you call "repostioning" pilots scabs? No way. You don't have those planes yet. What about you all taking the routes that we used to fly and flying RJ's on them? Oh no, you will say, Delta chose to do that. Well, Delta can choose to do a lot of things. They own the planes. Thanks Lawson.

Wil,

Too late. I do think the ASA guys did a good thing for hiring some of our pilots, and they will be rewarded somehow---much much more than Comair. This will not be forgotten. Delta owns the planes, and they can choose to do whatever they want, and if Dalpa happens to be whispering into their ears, oh well. It is their choice. Will the rates be close to Comair's? Probably. Will Delta get a better deal on the CRJ70 if a 3-4 year (total at Delta) Capt flying the CRJ70 instead of a 13 year Capt at Comair and ASA? Yes. Is that a cost advantage for Delta? Yes. Are there furloughed Delta flight attendants that would also come back? Yes. Are they looking into this closely? Yes. Does Dalpa want to get furloughed pilots off the street and get much needed dues back into their coffers, at the same time lowering the Cobra payments to the other 8100 Delta pilots? Yes. Will there be mass retirements soon at Delta (maybe May 1st) allowing movement and could Delta be looking at expansion with a possible Asian routes purchase from tanking UAL? Yes.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pilot141]

flaps30 I never said I thought I had a right to steal an Eagle job. What I said was that in this TA we give up pay, work rules and 2500 jobs and the only "upside" is that a few guys will be offered 70-seat captain jobs as Eagle grows. None of these jobs can cause an Eagle furlough; they are only available when Eagle buys a new jet and puts it into service.

As for my supposed "military attitude" and being "one step from a scab" - bite me. I'm pissed at the way AMR leveraged the unions with the threat of Ch 11 to get a 6-year dog of a contract. The "benefit" of a few left seats at Eagle is only available if the TA passes. I mentioned before that I voted against the TA. So I'm voting NO on a proposal that would give some guys a chance to go to new Eagle jets. I think the TA gives back too much, and I'm willing to stare down Carty right into Ch 11.

How exactly does this make me "one step from a scab"?

 

[rjcap]

Well, Delta can choose to do a lot of things. They own the planes.

You are correct General Lee. Delta, or more specifically Leo, will do exactly what he wants with both the RJ's and the mainline narrow body aircraft.

I'm just not quite clear on what the economic benefit is to crew the RJ's with mainline pilots whose pay and total compensation package are 200% to 300% more than ASA/Comair.

Regarding Comair, they can do whatever they want. They don't owe you anything.

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP,

You are absolutely correct. Leo can do anything they want. And, the only way we could sell this to him is to be at Comair's rates---probably with the same benefits. What you ask? But, why? The only difference would be that our furloughs would have recall rights at Delta. (They probably also would have CREDIT in years of service towards their retirement---you need 25 total years at Delta to receive full retirement) The wages would be about the same, and actually Delta would be getting a deal with our pilots--because the Comair and ASA pilots flying those planes would be making more--due to the fact that they have been at ASA/Comair for more years total. The costs to establish a separate DCI carrier would be offset by the less total costs of the Capt's pay compared to Comair/ASA. One of our furloughs, let's say he had 4 years with Delta, would be paid --maybe $65 an hour on the 70 seater, and maybe $80 an hour on the 90 seater. Your guys would be paid in the $100's.

As far as the Comair pilots---well besides our help(along with others at ALPA) with $$$ during their unsuccessful strike----you're right, they don't OWE us anything. They are free not to hire our furloughs if they choose. We will return the favor---and things will eventually turn around like they always do. Delta is stronger than most, and there will be pay cuts from our pilots in some form. We will not forget. And, snotty ASA Capt's like yourself will also be weeded out if you try to interview.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[eaglefly]

To answer your questions Surplus :

1. Yes, there IS protectional language in our CBA regarding "transfer of operations".

Specifically, AMR indeed can transfer our current and future CRJ's to ANYONE provided our CBA goes with it.

Included in our CBA (among other things) are our pay-rates and "affected pilots".

So if the say, 10 or so current CRJ's go to AA than the pilots CURRENTLY flying them go too. However, our Letter 3 (flow-thru) agreement (also part of the CBA) would allow AA furloughees to displace any of those captains who are not "eagle rights" (elected not to flow-thru). So out of the 50 current captains the AA pilots would get to bump maybe 20. They cannot touch to F/O's as they have no bumping rights to the F/O position. The "bumped" captains would theoretically go to the right seats.

It also must be noted that NO Eagle flow-thru captain can be bumped by an AA furloughee, unless that furloughee is senior to him/her on the AA seniority list.

However to transfer the CRJ's, they can only be transferred if they can find a way to do it "cost neutral".

Now if these A/C go to mainline, than mainline F/A's work them.

=cost increase.

Mainline mechanics work on them (plus transfer of tools and equipment, training).

= another cost increase.

Paperwork for transfer of operating certificate.

=another cost increase.

So it would seem that to negate these aspects of MULTIPLE cost increases the AA pilots pay rates would have to be SUBSTANTIALLY less than current Eagle rates.

Now another kicker. If AA pilots want pension accrual while operating these that will do what ?

= BIG cost increase.

Even if the APA agrees that all pilots who fly 70-seaters will NOT acrue ANY pension benefits, there pay rates will have to be SUBSTANTIALLY less than Mesa's.

Factor in the pension scenario....

I snicker to even think of it.

2. Apparently, the APA has waived their "displacement rights" in suppliment W. That means they intend NOT to displace any current flow-thru captain (50-seaters or less). But they want all captain seats above the current fleet count. So every jet that is replacing a turboprop will be staffed by our pilots.

After that it is a "jets-for-jobs" scenario with furloughed AA pilots getting all captains seats and current F/O's getting the shaft.

3. These agreements leave a lot of room for creative future interpretation by AMR and the future is unclear. Meeting with Eagle management occur tomorrow to get better understanding by all parties what our MEC will and will not tolerate.

The jury is out.

* Listening to Carty's latest, he now admits BK still strong possibility even with agreements. Since that will only hurt the voting, why he would say that now can only be looked at ominously (kinda - "I warned you it was still possible").

BK can't be much worse for us.

 

[rjcap]

The costs to establish a separate DCI carrier would be offset by the less total costs of the Capt's pay compared to Comair/ASA. One of our furloughs, let's say he had 4 years with Delta, would be paid --maybe $65 an hour on the 70 seater, and maybe $80 an hour on the 90 seater. Your guys would be paid in the $100's.

You might want to check those numbers Gen Lee. Our 4 year Cpt. rate on the 70 is $66.00 per hour. Your furloughed pilots will have to undercut that if they are going to accrue pension while flying the RJ. The $100/hr pay rate only affects the 15+ year pilots of which there are only a handful.

We will not forget. And, snotty ASA Capt's like yourself will also be weeded out if you try to interview.

We will not forget. And, snotty ASA Capt's like yourself will also be weeded out if you try to interview.

No thanks friend. Not interested in working with you.

Have you been to DFW lately ??

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP,

Yes, I have been to DFW lately, I was there for the big meeting with Fred Reid and Joe Kolshack---the one where they said we could get the 70 and or 90 seaters for the right price, remember? Sure, your build up there has been large lately, and some of that is because our loads there currently can't support larger. Well, when we get some 70 seaters maybe our guys will fly out there too. Fred Reid also said that we may go after UAL's Asian routes and maybe a SFO hub-----that would be nice growth. As far as flying for Delta and maybe flying with me----hey, if you don't want to interview--fine. When you eventually see your ASA friends in the right seat of Song 757's, or Delta 737-800's, you might wish you had. It will all eventually happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

surplus (of posts, apparently, and nothing else), I hope you enjoy your fantasy world.

As a matter of fact I do enjoy my world, fantasy or otherwise. Apparently you don't enjoy yours or you would not be trying to steal from someone else to improve your own lot in life.

Yeah, us AA pilots are getting REALLY good at stealing AE jobs. That's why we have to have Ch 11 hung over our heads in order to get a few more jobs. We give up $660 million/year while knowing that AE is buying RJs and we are parking mainline jets. Those few CL-700 left seats are certainly worth 2500 furloughs.

Maybe that will fly with some kid, but not with me. You were trying to steal the Eagle pilots jobs long before there was even a hint of Ch 11. Your union even reached a TA to that effect BEFORE the first delivery to Eagle of the first CL-700 (which you voted down for other reasons). That was done at the height of your hay-day and had nothing to do with Ch 11. Your Company is not parking your aircraft due to Eagle's jets and we both know it. Your aircraft are being parked because economic conditions make your company's business plan outmoded.

Your union even tried (deliberately and intentionally) to hoodwink the Eagle pilots with a so-called "one list" scam and phony "unity" posters that far too many of them were naive enough to swallow. Thanks in part to thier union which supports the same predatory intent, at their expense and that of others. So don't give me a sob story about Ch 11. You're using that as a convenient excuse for your actions. Nothing could be further from the truth as to your reasons and true intent.

I'm sorry you may be furloughed and I'm sorry your airline is on the brink of bankruptcy. That's not your fault and it most certainly is not the fault of the Eagle pilots. However, your predatory intent towards the Eagle pilots pre-dates your current economic plight by years. You may do it to others, but you can't pull the wool over my eyes with that rhetoric.

The bottom line is that AMR is using AE to leverage the APA. Big surprise. I'm voting no on the TA, but if I get a CL-700 left seat I'll take it, and if you call me a scab for doing it we're going to have words in the parking lot. Be careful when you start throwing out terms like that. You WILL live to regeret it.

AMR may be doing that but APA gave them the idea that they could, and thousands of you fully support that effort by the APA. The real "bottom line" is that your pilot group is using the jobs and seniority of the Eagle pilots as a bargaining chip in your effort to enhance your own fortunes.

I did not call you a scab, what I said was that the ONLY difference between your actions and those of a scab is the fact that there is no picket line at Eagle. If the shoe fits, wear it! I meant every word of what I said. When you take another man's job for your personal benefit and proclaim it as your "right", the line between what you are doing and your attempts to justify it mimic the logic of those that cross picket lines. But for the existence of the line itself, the differences are but a microscopic technicality. I've listened to excuses like yours many times before. Probably since before you were in grade school. Give me some reasons for I have grown tired of the excuses.

I'm not an Eagle pilot, but if I were we could easily have a lot more than words in the parking lot if you took my job. Maybe that's what some of you predators need; a comeuppance. I won't regret anything buddy, and I'm sick of being careful about what I say. You need to be careful of what you do for actions speak louder than words. It's time to call a spade a spade. Your displeasure is of no more concern to me than is my displeasure of concern to you.

If you were real union men you would be helping the AE pilots in fighting AMR and preventing the Company from using them or you as "leverage" (your word) in the bargaining process. Instead you yourselves are using the jobs of Eagle pilots to improve your own leverage. Your self-interest has caused you to abdicate your principles, and has blurred your vision.

Unity is indeed the answer but you don't want unity. What you want is acceptance of your efforts to take from others. You won't get that from me no matter how angry you get.

 

[pilot141]

Well surplus all I can do is wonder that since you don't really have a dog in this fight (you're not an Eagle pilot) why are you so angry at me? Apparently you failed to notice that I'm voting AGAINST this lousy TA - for many reasons. If I was solely concerned with bettering my lot in life by stealing something from the Eagle guys I'd suck up the TA and hope to get an RJ seat. But I'm not. I also never said I thought I had a right to an Eagle job - just that if offered one I would take it. Note again: I'm voting NO on the TA that might give me this opportunity.

And you've figured something else out - I'm going to get hit with this furlough, which means I haven't been around AMR for years and years. But you attribute every bad thing that has happened between APA and Eagle to me, including "years of predatory intent." Well, the predatory intent I see right now is Don Carty licking his chops at the possibility of huge concessions from the unions.

And since you've decided to not hold back what you say anymore, I will do the same. In general, I'm sick and tired of whiny regional guys who DON'T WORK FOR AMR telling me what a jerk I am for flying mainline/belonging to APA/just generally existing. You fight your battles to get bigger jets for you, we fight our battles to get those jets for us. That's the way things are. The frustration and/or jealousy at not being at the mainline injects amazing amounts of venom into any discussion at all about this issue.

I made the mistake of jumping into this discussion and I regret it. I can no longer argue with guys who DON'T have a stake in this but are still pissed at me. surplus I suggest you go back to whatever world it is you live in where it's productive for you to get worked up over something that doesn't affect you. I'm going to have a beer and relax for a while, far away from the spitting cobras that populate this board.

 

[Slug]

Delta Hijacking

How about you fueding delta parties quit hijacking all the threads not related to delta and start your own. I click on the AA/APA thread and see nothing but delta crap. As much as you don't want to believe it there are others out there besides ASA, Comair, and delta.



Slug

 

[surplus1]

Well surplus all I can do is wonder that since you don't really have a dog in this fight (you're not an Eagle pilot) why are you so angry at me?

Pilot141,

First of all I'm not angry with you personally and attempted to make that clear. I'm angry about the issue and the principles involved. That results in heated discussions with those that support this behavior and anger at the leadership of the unions that promote it. The latter includes both the APA and the ALPA (to which I belong) Actually I'm far more angry at ALPA than the APA. That is because the APA only represents AA pilots and has no true responsibility to look out for the welfare of AE pilots. In contrast, ALPA does the same thing to its own members, i.e., takes from some members to give to other members, discriminates against regional pilots and, in my opinion, does not honor it's Duty of Fair Representation which is mandated by law.

The decision on how you vote on this TA is yours to make and I respect that. Yes, I did notice that you said you would vote NO. However, I also noticed that your reason is NOT the APA's effort to take from the Eagle pilots. On the contrary, you said you would take the job if you could get it. That means you support that part of the TA. If you were voting against your TA because of what it will do to the Eagle pilots, then you would be in my corner. You aren't.

The idea that I don't have a dog in this fight because I am not an Eagle pilot, just isn't so. You and others that support this concept should also remember the axiom that "it is not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, but the size of the fight in the dog." The same effort that the APA is making to take jobs and seniority from the Eagle pilots is also being made by ALPA with respect to the regional pilots of other airlines one of which happens to be mine. If you are successful at AA, it will merely add more fuel to the fire and help to set precedent that this type of predatory behavior is A-OK. Well, as far as I'm concerned it is not OK and ultimately, if you get away with it, it will affect me directly.

What happens at UAL, DAL, NWA, AAA and even SWA also affects what happens at AA. Your company is claiming right now that the cause of your setback is competition from SouthWest. Crap runs downhill. As we write, Delta pilots are trying to do to ASA and Comair, exactly what AA pilots are trying to do to Eagle. ALPA and the USAirways pilots have already done their version of it to the pilots of ALG, PDT, PSA, Mesa, MDW, TSA, and CHQ, and the NWA pilots have their version for MSA and PCL. So, I do have a direct interest, whether or not I'm and Eagle pilot.

I do not attribute every bad thing that has happened between APA and Eagle to you presonally. I attribute it to the APA. You just happen to be part and parcel of the APA and I don't see you opposing this behavior.

You are correct in noting that you CEO is licking his chops at the prospect of large concessions. Are you sure you're not licking your chops at the prospect of getting one of the Eagle pilot's jobs and bypassing their seniority in case you should lose your own job? Are you not seeking to cease the very same opportunity that your CEO is seeking? The only difference is the victim.

And since you've decided to not hold back what you say anymore, I will do the same. In general, I'm sick and tired of whiny regional guys who DON'T WORK FOR AMR telling me what a jerk I am for flying mainline/belonging to APA/just generally existing. You fight your battles to get bigger jets for you, we fight our battles to get those jets for us. That's the way things are. The frustration and/or jealousy at not being at the mainline injects amazing amounts of venom into any discussion at all about this issue.

I'm glad you decided to speak frankly. The more we get our feelings into the open the greater the chance of resolving our differences. The backroom and under the table politics doesn't improve the situation.

It is true I don't work for AMR and I've already explained my "interest". The Eagle pilots DO work for AMR. I have no problem with you fighting to protect the job that you have. I have a huge problem with you trying to take the jobs that they have. That may well be the "way things are", but it is NOT the way they ought to be. You can call it jealousy or frustration at not being at the mainline if you choose, but that's not what it is for me (I can't speak for others). I don't see the Eagle pilots trying to take your job. The bigger airplanes they are getting are not the airplanes you are flying and, according to your union, they are not a part of your airline, they are separate. If they were trying to take your DC-9s, I would be on your side. Your group is trying to take their airplanes and their seats and their seniority. In my opinion that's wrong so I'm on their side as well as my own.

If I should wait, be silent and hope that someone will not try to take my big airplanes, my seniority and my job, that's the same as waiting for Saddam Hussein to drop a bomb on Washington, DC before trying to get rid of him. No thanks. If I can stop you before you succeed then I will, no matter how much venom it generates. It's better for me to generate a little venom of my own than to sit and wait to be poisoned by your venom. Call it self-defense.

I made the mistake of jumping into this discussion and I regret it. I can no longer argue with guys who DON'T have a stake in this but are still pissed at me. surplus I suggest you go back to whatever world it is you live in where it's productive for you to get worked up over something that doesn't affect you. I'm going to have a beer and relax for a while, far away from the spitting cobras that populate this board.

Well sir, I didn't make a mistake by jumping into the discussion and I have no regrets. I DO have a stake in this and that stake is my job. It may not be as good a job as the one that you have, but it is the ONLY one that I have. I can't go back to the world I live in because I never left it. You and I live in the same world. We are both airline pilots. You have an interest in protecting your job security and I have an equal interest in protecting mine.

It is true that AA pilots cannot take anything from me. However, Delta pilots certainly could. You emulate them and they emulate you. They are already trying to do the same thing that you are trying to do. If you are successful it will only serve to help their effort. I am trying to help the Eagle pilots by blocking your efforts to shaft them in any way that I can. Maybe they will help us to do the same when its our turn in the barrell. I hope so.

Believe me I would much prefer to join you in a cool one and relax over more trivial thoughts. I'd be happy to do that just as soon as the Cobra in your basket stops trying to bite the Cobra in my basket. It's not personal Pilot141, it's just self preservation; nature's first law.

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." - Winston Churchill

Sorry to dissapoint you but I have no desire to be eaten and I'm not into feeding any predators.

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: Delta Hijacking

How about you fueding delta parties quit hijacking all the threads not related to delta and start your own. I click on the AA/APA thread and see nothing but delta crap. As much as you don't want to believe it there are others out there besides ASA, Comair, and delta.

Hear! Hear! It took exactly 1 response for this hijacking to begin this time, with the same old perpetrators. I agree with Slug, you need to start your own thread. No doubt it will never die.

 

[Counselair]

Delta Hijacking

Well said Slug and Cat Yaaak!

I'm furloughed TWA/AA and look at these threads trying to gain some perspective from both the Eagle guys and the APA guys. I'm trying to figure out just how long I'm gonna be on the street and everytime I click on the thread I have to scroll down the same Dalpa arguments by the same folks everyday. Get a thread, get a room, I don't care, just get out of the way!

Counselair

 

[Spur]

We need a "Hijacked by Delta" icon on this board so we can avoid reading all the same BS over and over...