High Time / Not Current = No Interview?

[OldTomcat]

Looking for currency & hiring discussion.

I have over 5000 hours, Mil and CFI prior to that, most of time is turbine Multi-engine. Unfortunately, military assignment didn't allow me to fly much (<20 hours) last two years. No Type Rating. Is my lack of currency the primary reason I haven't received a call to interview after 6-months of looking? --or, is it just the market in general? Before 9/11, folks were telling me that currency isn't as big of an issue for someone with this much time and experience. I have constrained my Part 91/135 commuter search to SW U.S.

I understand the personal currency for competency side of it -- I did the weekend ATP thing and had no problem with instrument work.

I'm trying to decide whether I should reinstate my CFI by getting MEI/CFII and build some bug-smasher time, rent the C-172 once a week, pay for a type rating, or just sit here in front of this computor, job networking and sending resumes.

Thanks!

 

[banned username 2]

Well as you well know, the market and industry suck right now... The currency issue might be a factor... but probably not as big as the overall market conditions...

I would, however, get that additional Instructor rating, just to show you are doing your part to continue to fly and advance yourself in any practical way you can...

Good luck!

 

[Andy Neill]

As I understand the scoring system at SkyWest, someone who had 300 hours of PIC multi-engine crew turbine time in instrument conditions in Part 121/135 operations in the last 6 months would score higher than you would with 5000 hours of flight time more than a year ago. That is a bit simplistic, but it gives you an idea of the value is placed on recent hard time rather than loads of old time.

Some recent Part 135 work (and some letters of recommend from SkyWest pilots) would get SkyWest's attention for an interview.

 

[CatYaaak]

Being current is important, but from what you wrote, I'd say a MUCH bigger factor is your self-imposed limitation of only looking in the SW region, which traditionally has always had the fewest amount of flying jobs in the country. (I can understand your desire though. Give me a G-lV based in Santa Fe and I'm there!)

Given your experience, hours, and background, any prospective employer knows that its just a matter of brushing up skills you have proven already, but none of that matters if you can't "be there" in the first place.

After getting current I would target Part 91 corporate flight departments who operate jet fleets. Every one has a different corporate culture, and your military background will definitely get you noticed by some. Obviously most are situated around large metro areas, but not all. Plus, even starting pay is livable for you and a family, unlike any regional airline or charter outfit. Also try the fractionals...you can live where you want to which is a big bonus.

Good luck

 

[Draginass]

When hiring is hot and the pool of experience pilots low, then currency isn't as important, but still important. When I retired from the military, I was current, but only flying about 50 hours a year. I had to settle for a second tier company for a couple of years to build up 121 and current time . . . as well as the type rating. Right now, there's quite a few US Air guys on the street, all with current part 121 time and I'm sure the willingness to resign seniority if they could get onto someone like Southwest. BTW, I just heard SWA is requiring a type rating again to even be considered for an interview.

Supply and demand. Can't get around it.

Have you applied to NetJets or some of the fractional operators?

Good luck.

 

[bobbysamd]

Stay current

I'd reinstate the CFI. For one thing, as you know, your CFI is a tangible credential with which you can find work - and stay current on someone else's nickel. Airline apps almost always ask how much flying one has done during the past six months. If you put down zero, it is not a postive. You are always better off doing everything possible to keep flying

I wouldn't recommend that you buy the type rating. You don't need it. You already have excellent quals from the military. I'd say "yes" to that if and only if you had a chance to get a Citation job. If you want to spend the money, you're better off upgrading your CFI, and for a lot less money than the type. Any leftover money you can use for intensive sim work and interview prep, both of which would be tax-deductable (in the alternative, you can send your leftover money to me so I can get current and reinstate my CFI! ).

That's my .02. Good luck with your job search.

 

[OldTomcat]

Thanks for all the feedback-- hope it has helped others as well. I'm continually impressed by the helpfulness on this site.

Some comments on your comments:

- "Looking in SW only" I must have misstated, better stated-- I'm not willing to move my family for a job that will just barely pay for the move -- I can't bear the wife's bitching -- allot of Corporate /charter in SOCAL, but seems like they are getting tired of paying for type ratings. Fracs seem even more focused on recent experience, regardless of TT -- a senior at NETJETS told me they've had trouble with new hires with low recent time.

- Corporate Flight Department culture: the Military vs. Civillian thing has been a real eye-opener for me. I think I lost an opportunity because there was an uprising among the predominately civillian background pilots when I was being looked at. -- Pls don't use me to launch into a Mil vs. Civil debate -- both have folks that walked to flight school in 2 feet of snow. "Culture" is definitely a factor.

Yep, supply and demand--- and perseverance.

Off to continuew study for my CFII / MEI writtens-- on your advice. I'm going to "Sheble's" Accelerated, unless someone tells me it's a mistake-- I wouldn't recommend it for the inexperienced.

Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

Sheble's

For someone like you, good choice. You'll do fine with your background. I got my ATP there 13½ years ago when he was in Blythe. You absolutely, positively, must be prepared if you go to Sheble's.

Good luck with your rating(s). Enjoy your probable 2.0 (including checkride) in the airplane at Sheble's.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for all the feedback-- hope it has helped others as well. I'm continually impressed by the helpfulness on this site.

allot of Corporate /charter in SOCAL, but seems like they are getting tired of paying for type ratings. Fracs seem even more focused on recent experience, regardless of TT -- a senior at NETJETS told me they've had trouble with new hires with low recent time.

Thanks

They are not getting "tired" of paying for type ratings, they are simply finding that in a more competitive job market, they don't HAVE to pay for them, not if they can find some one to send to recurrent, instead!

I don't usually advocate buying a type, and I would never suggest buying a type as a prerequisite to getting a job , but in your particular case, instead of re-newing a CFII rating, I would consider going to Carlsbad and getting a straight-wing Citation type from Mike Pappas, instead. I think it's less than $4000.

That will show that you are teachable, current, and will "balance out" your high time. Having 5000 hrs and no type ratings might raise some red flags, if someone didn't bother to look further into it, and, sad to say, in this market, a lot of employers aren't going to call you and ask for the details . . . .

Having that CE500 type will probably open some doors for you, at least for some day-hire SIC or co-captain work (which 10 or 15 days of that will have paid for the type-rating), but most importantly, when you are out there, working in the system, you will be meeting people and should be able to network your way into a decent position.

If you are still interested in NetJets then, that also ought to get their attention.

I am basing this advice on my 5 years as a corporate jet pilot.

Best of Luck

 

[bobbysamd]

Mike Pappas

Here again, only unless someone is dangling a job in front of you contingent on getting the type, I wouldn't do it. Your Navy fighter and A-4 quals speak for themselves. But, if you must get a Citation type, Mike Pappas is the guy to go to.

I got my Citation with Mike 12½ years ago when he was Professional Airlines Systems. He is now Flight Crew Systems, Inc. Some of the best fun I had in aviation was training with Mike Pappas. A great four days. He delivers on everything he promises. Do read through the huge, loose-leaf Citation manual he sends before class. An important plus of his course, at least when I went, was that it was 141-approved. For that reason, maybe you have some G.I. bill benies that would pay for it.

Another benefit of going to Mike is he is one of the most saavy aviation people you'll meet. It's almost worth it just to attend his course to get his input on your plans. I remember that during our class he ran a mini-interview prep course for us.

Once again, good luck with your plans

 

[OldTomcat]

Paying for Type

So what do you folks that are familiar with Corporate / Charter hiring think of this, for someone that has been offered a job if they "only had a type rating:"

Would a company be willing to sign a contract that says something like: "we'll hire you for $x amount, you (pilot) pay for type and therefore there is no contract payback for training"

The pilot pays for his own training and has some control over his future if a better offer comes along-- of course I would rather have the company pay, but it is not happening at the moment--- as someone said, the type may pay for itself in a fairly short amount of time.

I see this as being a little different than paying for hours, since a pilot is investing in himself for a specific skill.

 

[CitationCapt]

Buying a type vs. reinstating CFI

I have to agree with Ty Webb that in your case you might consider buying a Citation type rating, and Mike Pappas would be a good selection. Corporate Flight Departments looking for fill-in help on that aircraft type might be interested in adding you to their insurance for SIC duties on an as needed basis.

You can gain some exposure to other jet operators by being seen in their front yard. You can make contacts with the management of other Part 91 and 135 jet operators and maintain periodic calls to those folks. Ultimately you might have a good chance of getting on as a full time SIC with someone in your backyard that is a Citation 500 series operator. At that time it can be more cost effective for them to send you to recurrent since you already have the type rating.

The CFI re-instatement should not be a major cost effort. Just another way to boost your currency by instructing in your spare time.

Good luck!

CC

 

[Draginass]

Getting a bizjet type with the GI Bill paying for most of it might not be a bad idea. Going to a major, nobody's going to know if you paid for your own bizjet type rating anyway.

Have you looked into Polar Air Cargo? They generally like military guys and will get you a 747 type rating. Tough hard work but maybe not too bad for a few years until something better opens up.

 

[OldTomcat]

For anyone else considering Mike Pappas' school, a comment from a local corporate / charter company: "Ony problem with Pappas school is that it is not approved by all Insurance Companies. It might be better to go to Flight Safety in Long Beach, and be trained for specific 135 Certificate,and do your 135 checkride in the airplane."

Of course I suspect it is more expensive as well.

 

[Ty Webb]

For anyone else considering Mike Pappas' school, a comment from a local corporate / charter company: "Ony problem with Pappas school is that it is not approved by all Insurance Companies. It might be better to go to Flight Safety in Long Beach, and be trained for specific 135 Certificate,and do your 135 checkride in the airplane."

Of course I suspect it is more expensive as well.

What your contact is talking about is not the same thing I am talking about. A type from Pappas will work fine, for what I sugested it for- SIC work- remember, a type is not required for a SIC.

I did NOT suggest you get a Citation type on your own nickle as a prerequisite to being hired somewhere- I suggested you get your own type rating because, as it stands right now, you probably have quite a bit of turbojet time on your resume, and no type ratings- not a good thing, from the standpoint of someone screening resumes. Hell, it's not even possible to log turbojet PIC without a type rating (in the civilian world) and a lot of civilian guys don;t know much about military aircraft designations.

As for the 135 training- what he said doesn't make sense, unless you already have a job offer. You see, there is no such thing as a "generic" 135 checkride, you can't get a 135 check from FSI or Simuflite unless you are on someone's certificate and they have submitted a T/A (training authorization).

I would not buy a type as a contingency for a 135 SIC job- that is the company's responsibility to train the employee. If someone hires you as a 135 pilot, it will be their responsibility to send you to school for their training.

What I was suggesting was that you get a cheap type to round out your certificates/ratings, show currency, etc, and to make yourself competitive for day-hire work.



I

 

[OldTomcat]

"Pappas school" Citation type -- SOCAL

Reply to my inquiry regarding the "Pappas" Citation school in SOCAL.

Thank you for your recent inquiry regarding our Citation Type Rating School. We offer a comprehensive program, which includes a three-day ground school, cockpit procedural training and rating ride. For your convenience, we have examining authority on the aircraft. All materials are provided, including the Citation Flight Operations Manual, Flight Training Manual, and Performance Manual. In addition, you will receive regular handouts, such as class notes, specifications sheets, gauge sheets, etc. We are the only school that utilizes corporate pilots exclusively to instruct. The total cost of our course is $4500, which includes 3 hours in the jet, plus $500 paid to the Examiner. We also offer expanded courses with 5 hours in the jet for $7250. Our VA Approved 141 course with 7 hours in the aircraft allows serviceman to take advantage of their GI Benefits.



The class is held the third week of each month, Monday through Friday, at our facility at Palomar airport. Our next course opening is November 11th – November 15th, convening at 9:00am. Our December Course is the 16th – 20th. Off scheduled courses may also be arranged in advance at a mutually convenient time for an additional fee. You will find accommodations very close to our school.



A $500 deposit is required for each student to enroll. Upon receipt, your position in the course is secured and we mail you the Citation manual and course notes. Most students appreciate the opportunity to review aircraft systems prior to arrival.



If you have an interest in our program, I would like to mail you our information packet. Please feel free to call with any additional questions. I look forward to meeting you in class.



Sincerely,



Kent N. Parrish, President
2056 Palomar Airport Road, Suite N
Carlsbad, CA 92008
760-476-0890
858-271-6029 fax