High Tension Van Rides

[JPAustin]

Oh I'm sure I will bombed out of the water rather quickly Sky.

Damn, one more thing I forgot to add... I PAY MY DUES, even though I have major gripes, ergo, I have every damned right to criticize. The problem is a lot of pilots pay their dues and share my views, but alas, we are but loooowly regional pilots with mere pittance to add to the royal coffers and hence, have no REAL impact

 

[SkyNation]

blasphemy! how dare you question the mighty UNION!?

soon class acts like USC and his yappy little side-kick Jmoney will get all up in your face and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about, you're just selfish and only care about yourself, blah blah blah....

plus Nevets is committed to posting on every single thread that has anything remotely to do with SkyWest. no one is sure why.

oh well, everyone hates a winner.

oh, but they're just trying to help us, too. it's purely altruistic on their part.

 

[USCtrojan]

blasphemy! how dare you question the mighty UNION!?

soon class acts like USC and his yappy little side-kick Jmoney will get all up in your face and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about, you're just selfish and only care about yourself, blah blah blah....

plus Nevets is committed to posting on every single thread that has anything remotely to do with SkyWest. no one is sure why.

oh well, everyone hates a winner.

oh, but they're just trying to help us, too. it's purely altruistic on their part.

skywhore, do you bring anything to the table, like knowledge? Or is it just your stupidity? Nevets supports posts with facts, yours are supported by a whole lot of stupidity and even dumber speculation on your part. It's fun watching you post, because you really are funny! I'm wondering how dumb you really are? I don't have a sidekick, there's plenty of people on this forum that find you irrelevant, however. Maybe that's what got into your crotch?

Trojan

 

[Nevets]

With all due respect, I sincerely and wholeheartedly disagree with your statement, save a few of the facts you correctly highlighted. Yes, ALPA is bottom up and democratic and each state (group) represents its pilots against management and national (ALPA national) does the representation of those groups.

However, you inaccurately stated that it is very difficult for corruption to take place. The largest and most obvious is the fact that every pilot pays a flat "tax" if you will, of, and correct me if I am wrong but I know I am close, 1.25% of their pay. That is entirely unfair to the pilot groups who have less say than the larger groups yet still pay the same percentage. Additionally, it doesn't matter that a major pilot has more pay taken out because he makes more than a regional -- 1.25% hurts a regional pilot more than a major pilot. Finally, the method with which the ALPA royal coffers are used to represent the "majority" needs of the pilots in Washington and elsewhere usually take into account those MECs with the biggest input of money, in other words, the majors.

And nobody cares anymore about the tired old stupid line ALPA comes up with everytime pilots brings up the above. Becoming a major airline pilot is not the end-all be-all to life anymore. Geesh. Why else do you think the RJDC exists? Because a group of regional pilots had spare time on their hands, or because they make some good points about the sins and inequities of ALPA?

Oh yes, another level of corruption is that those with long tenure at national can trend towards separation from the wants and needs of the MECs and go on personal agendas (and you can't say that doesn't happen, because it does) and/or lose touch with the majority needs of ALPA rather than special interest groups (age 60 for example -- there are bigger fish to fry than that FAR, guys).

I could go on with corruption examples but I will move onto other points. ALPA needs to run like a business if it want's to get anything accomplished at the pace and efficiency of the entities ALPA is trying to protect pilots against, a la management. ALPA is a veritable dinosaur when it comes to self-management and its playbook of arbitration is as predictable as the (insert any 0-8 NFL team of your choice) playbook. Managements are, and will continue be, light-years ahead of ALPA in terms of negotiation. Can anyone counter this arguement with facts? My facts are a 50-year lookback on the history of ALPA -- just read Flying the Line I and II (yes, I have) and it is a playbook for managements to follow.

Now, I never said ALPA is a bad thing. It seems like anytime a pilot has a criticism of ALPA, all the ALPA warriors come out of the wood-work and bang their drums. For GODS SAKE, ITS CRITICISM. Oh yes, let me counter your immediate response of "well, that's why you have a vote in your representatives, blah blah blah..." Bull, my vote as a regional pilot has nill effect on the workings of ALPA, pure and simple. If it did, there would have been a change in wages, rigs, etc. a long time ago. There has been plenty of change for major airline pilots, often times on the backs of their regional brethren.

And oh yes, I was a rep, and yes, I was a volunteer, and oh yes, I walked the picket lines. Uh oh, does all that not count now because I (GASP), brought up a criticism and hurt some terribly fragile egos? I left all that crap because anytime I had constructive criticism towards my MEC or ALPA, I was alienated. Hmm, there was a reason I was voted in wasn't there? Something about the campaign I ran on that the pilot group seemed to like?

But I digress. Thus ends the diatribe. Fire away warriors, and best regards.

Its okay to criticize but don't expect people to defend them positions when you criticize them.

With that said let me begin with corruption. Yes, it is possible to have a few people who are "more wasteful" with their members due money. But its not like anyone is packing their golden parachute with dues money. Its just not possible with the auditing rules put in place by the federal government. They do look at union business VERY closely.

Now if you want to criticize the dues assessment, by all means go ahead. There are many valid arguments to be made about dues assessment. Also, the larger pilot groups subsidize the smaller groups. Yes, some of the dues money from the FedExs of the profession goes to the TSAs of the profession.

Now going back to your state analogy, if you want to think of each pilot group as a state, you have to think of the Executive Council as the Senate and the Executive Board as the House. The bigger pilot groups have more of a say in the Executive Board (ONLY if they decide to vote by roll call) but all the groups have the same say in the Executive Council. Also, think about this, its getting really close to the point where regional pilots outnumber major airline pilots.

As for how "the method with which the ALPA royal coffers are used," this is VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS to the ALPA Political Action Committee. NO dues money is used to lobby ANYBODY.

You make another excellent point, that being an airline pilot is no longer the end all be all. And this is precisely why ALPA is working hard to organize pilots. To, as Prater says, take it back. But you are right that ALPA is not perfect. And ALPA is learning from some of their mistakes of the past, as they should.

As for corruption from those with long tenure at ALPA national, remember that these people are voted into office every four years by local council reps (who are voted in every two years)! So, yeah, they can go on personal agendas but they have to answer to them every four years not unlike our own federal government. Like I said before, there is constant turning of elected officials that make it very difficult for corruption to take hold. Those concerns of yours are taken care of because of that. Its just up to YOU, the line pilot, to stay abreast of what YOUR elected reps are doing and recall or vote them out the next time around.

Next, I agree with you 110% that ALPA needs to run more like a business and there is a beaurocratic dinosour to be dealt with every time something needs to be done. But some of this is attributable to the Railway Labor Act and the Labor Management Reporting And Disclosure Act. Think about this, if a pilot does something wrong, the company punishes them and its done. But if the company does something wrong, there is nothing else ALPA can do than to grieve it, appeal it, and ultimately take it to arbitration. Its the law and its nothing ALPA can do about that right now. So yes, the playbook is 50 years old and Flying the Line I&II chronicle it pretty good but its because the RLA and the LMRDA are more than 50 years old.

Next, your vote does have an effect on the inner working of ALPA as much as your vote for local city council member, congressman, senator does. But you have to stay engaged with that rep once he/she is elected to make sure they know what the issues important to you are. ALPA just like state and federal reps are NOT for the lazy people if you want to make a difference. Its fine if you just want to go to work, do your thing, and go home but don't expect your reps to read your minds. You have to call them, email them, go to local council and MEC meetings and tell them in person. This is an organization run mostly by VOLUNTEERS after all so don't expect them to call everyone and ask them what they think. But ulitmately if you dont like the way they are doing ALPA business you have the power to recall them or vote them out next election. Like I said, not much different from state and federal elected officials.

And if you think that your elected reps could simple change wages, rigs, etc if they wanted to then you are living in dream land. But if you don't believe me, I urge you to run for a position and do it yourself, please. The changes that came to major airline pilots lately are because of 9/11 and bankruptcy. They suffered as much if not more. Many regional airlines have benefited by these events because major airline managements were able to loosen up scope clauses through concessions or bankruptcy courts. Skywest is a perfect example of that.

Don't worry about my ego, it will recover fine. I don't mind the critizism at all. I welcome and ask for it regurlarly. And yo have some very valid points that I may agree with. I just feel that on balance ALPA would be good for Skywest pilots. And I know how you feel about having constructive criticism for the MEC, I've had that alienated feeling from WITHIN our MEC. But it takes a strong rep that is true to his/her convictions to do what they feel is in the best interest of the pilots to disregard those feelings.

With all due respect, it surprises me that you were an elected rep when you didn't know of the many things I have written on this reply. Its not easy learning all the aspects about this profession and its time consuming but its something that should be done when you take a serious position as a local council rep. I'm sorry you are jaded about your experience with ALPA and I hope that you can reconsider your volunteerism.

If I misconstrued any of your post, please correct me.

Fly safe

 

[Nevets]

plus Nevets is committed to posting on every single thread that has anything remotely to do with SkyWest. no one is sure why.

oh well, everyone hates a winner.

oh, but they're just trying to help us, too. it's purely altruistic on their part.

No one is sure why? I'm not trying to hide anything. I support your fellow pilots on having ALPA represent them. I support ALPA in general. I post on threads that have anything to do with either of these issues. No secret about that. I say where I work and I even post my real name to every single post. If you still have any doubt, I plan on being in LAX with the Organizing Committee folks on 10/30 and 11/1. Come on by and I'll treat you to Starbucks if you still have any questions.

I don't hate anybody, much less Skywest. I think Skywest is a good company that could be the undisputed top regional to work for. I know there are good arguments to say they are that right now. And I wouldn't disagree but what I'm saying is that they can be come the UNARGUABLE top regional hands down without a question best place to work. But sadly, SAPA will NOT help the pilots get there.

Altruistic? I don't know. I have a couple dozen friends at Skywest and I hope for them that ALPA is successful but there is another component to this drive. ALPA believes that by unionizing Skywest and all other non union properties, that they can mitigate the whipsawing going around. This in turn helps the profession as a whole and indirectly, yes, it does help me.

 

[JPAustin]

Its okay to criticize but don't expect people to defend them positions when you criticize them.

With that said let me begin with corruption. Yes, it is possible to have a few people who are "more wasteful" with their members due money. But its not like anyone is packing their golden parachute with dues money. Its just not possible with the auditing rules put in place by the federal government. They do look at union business VERY closely.

Now if you want to criticize the dues assessment, by all means go ahead. There are many valid arguments to be made about dues assessment. Also, the larger pilot groups subsidize the smaller groups. Yes, some of the dues money from the FedExs of the profession goes to the TSAs of the profession.

Now going back to your state analogy, if you want to think of each pilot group as a state, you have to think of the Executive Council as the Senate and the Executive Board as the House. The bigger pilot groups have more of a say in the Executive Board (ONLY if they decide to vote by roll call) but all the groups have the same say in the Executive Council. Also, think about this, its getting really close to the point where regional pilots outnumber major airline pilots.

As for how "the method with which the ALPA royal coffers are used," this is VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS to the ALPA Political Action Committee. NO dues money is used to lobby ANYBODY.

You make another excellent point, that being an airline pilot is no longer the end all be all. And this is precisely why ALPA is working hard to organize pilots. To, as Prater says, take it back. But you are right that ALPA is not perfect. And ALPA is learning from some of their mistakes of the past, as they should.

As for corruption from those with long tenure at ALPA national, remember that these people are voted into office every four years by local council reps (who are voted in every two years)! So, yeah, they can go on personal agendas but they have to answer to them every four years not unlike our own federal government. Like I said before, there is constant turning of elected officials that make it very difficult for corruption to take hold. Those concerns of yours are taken care of because of that. Its just up to YOU, the line pilot, to stay abreast of what YOUR elected reps are doing and recall or vote them out the next time around.

Next, I agree with you 110% that ALPA needs to run more like a business and there is a beaurocratic dinosour to be dealt with every time something needs to be done. But some of this is attributable to the Railway Labor Act and the Labor Management Reporting And Disclosure Act. Think about this, if a pilot does something wrong, the company punishes them and its done. But if the company does something wrong, there is nothing else ALPA can do than to grieve it, appeal it, and ultimately take it to arbitration. Its the law and its nothing ALPA can do about that right now. So yes, the playbook is 50 years old and Flying the Line I&II chronicle it pretty good but its because the RLA and the LMRDA are more than 50 years old.

Next, your vote does have an effect on the inner working of ALPA as much as your vote for local city council member, congressman, senator does. But you have to stay engaged with that rep once he/she is elected to make sure they know what the issues important to you are. ALPA just like state and federal reps are NOT for the lazy people if you want to make a difference. Its fine if you just want to go to work, do your thing, and go home but don't expect your reps to read your minds. You have to call them, email them, go to local council and MEC meetings and tell them in person. This is an organization run mostly by VOLUNTEERS after all so don't expect them to call everyone and ask them what they think. But ulitmately if you dont like the way they are doing ALPA business you have the power to recall them or vote them out next election. Like I said, not much different from state and federal elected officials.

And if you think that your elected reps could simple change wages, rigs, etc if they wanted to then you are living in dream land. But if you don't believe me, I urge you to run for a position and do it yourself, please. The changes that came to major airline pilots lately are because of 9/11 and bankruptcy. They suffered as much if not more. Many regional airlines have benefited by these events because major airline managements were able to loosen up scope clauses through concessions or bankruptcy courts. Skywest is a perfect example of that.

Don't worry about my ego, it will recover fine. I don't mind the critizism at all. I welcome and ask for it regurlarly. And yo have some very valid points that I may agree with. I just feel that on balance ALPA would be good for Skywest pilots. And I know how you feel about having constructive criticism for the MEC, I've had that alienated feeling from WITHIN our MEC. But it takes a strong rep that is true to his/her convictions to do what they feel is in the best interest of the pilots to disregard those feelings.

With all due respect, it surprises me that you were an elected rep when you didn't know of the many things I have written on this reply. Its not easy learning all the aspects about this profession and its time consuming but its something that should be done when you take a serious position as a local council rep. I'm sorry you are jaded about your experience with ALPA and I hope that you can reconsider your volunteerism.

If I misconstrued any of your post, please correct me.

Fly safe

An excellent and adult response, Nevjets. That is very unlike most debates on FlightInfo. And by the way, I was never referring to your ego in particular, just those I have had experience with in my own LECs and MEC. I have been spit on enough times (figuratively speaking) with hate and discontent for bringing up simple "anti-koolaid", if you will, criticisms.

Yes, my experience has been jaded, I do know how ALPA operates, and by "royal coffers", I was referring to the percentage of my dues that are used by ALPA national directly -- my federal taxes if you will.

I don't like to name names so as to protect the innocent (and guilty for that matter), but at my airline, I watched first hand as the MEC completely and without just cause settle on concessions that were no where near what the pilot group was content with. I found it flabbergasting that my MEC seemed to have a "hard on" (to quote SkyNation) for the carrot that another ALPA major carrier dangled if we did certain things, not to mention the carrots management dangled, and correctly assumed, the union would take.

Don't get me wrong, I do support ALPA, I "neutrally" pay my full dues, and I recognize and appreciate the protections. But I would like to see some major change that is always promised, but never delivered.

Oh yes, in regard to your intelligent remarks on the RLA and NLRB, you are right, ALPA is bound by those laws and has fewer options then managements. However, it is the techniques and demands and intra-union strife that managements know will happen. We are a weak and divided union, and managements know this. Perhaps some lobbying for anti-trust immunity for unions to create some industry-wide contract standardization in some areas.

Finally, a few points I always make. ALPA cannot be all things to all pilots, thus there is an undeniable rift between pilot-group interests. A monopoly can never sustain itself. Special interests don't win policy.

Thanks for the good debate Nevjets. Take care and may all your summer boardings be delayed boardings until they hook up an aircart or the damned APU gets fixed.

 

[Nevets]

An excellent and adult response, Nevjets. That is very unlike most debates on FlightInfo. And by the way, I was never referring to your ego in particular, just those I have had experience with in my own LECs and MEC. I have been spit on enough times (figuratively speaking) with hate and discontent for bringing up simple "anti-koolaid", if you will, criticisms.

Yes, my experience has been jaded, I do know how ALPA operates, and by "royal coffers", I was referring to the percentage of my dues that are used by ALPA national directly -- my federal taxes if you will.

I don't like to name names so as to protect the innocent (and guilty for that matter), but at my airline, I watched first hand as the MEC completely and without just cause settle on concessions that were no where near what the pilot group was content with. I found it flabbergasting that my MEC seemed to have a "hard on" (to quote SkyNation) for the carrot that another ALPA major carrier dangled if we did certain things, not to mention the carrots management dangled, and correctly assumed, the union would take.

Don't get me wrong, I do support ALPA, I "neutrally" pay my full dues, and I recognize and appreciate the protections. But I would like to see some major change that is always promised, but never delivered.

Oh yes, in regard to your intelligent remarks on the RLA and NLRB, you are right, ALPA is bound by those laws and has fewer options then managements. However, it is the techniques and demands and intra-union strife that managements know will happen. We are a weak and divided union, and managements know this. Perhaps some lobbying for anti-trust immunity for unions to create some industry-wide contract standardization in some areas.

Finally, a few points I always make. ALPA cannot be all things to all pilots, thus there is an undeniable rift between pilot-group interests. A monopoly can never sustain itself. Special interests don't win policy.

Thanks for the good debate Nevjets. Take care and may all your summer boardings be delayed boardings until they hook up an aircart or the damned APU gets fixed.

As a member of my MEC I know a little of what its like not to agree with everything. But I stand behind my convictions. Anyways, I truly believe in the democratic process ALPA has built. Its this democratic process, with the help of members, that will help get these people out of office.

As for your dues, the portion that goes to national fund things that are available to all ALPA pilot groups, including Representation, Economic & Financial Analysis, Legal, Retirement and Insurance, Communications, Engineering and Air Safety, Membership and Council Services. Its not like its wasted on the president. If your MEC uses any of these services, they are NOT charged for them.

I like your thoughts on "industry-wide contract standardization" so that we can become a "real" union. But I wonder if ALPA starts to talk about this as a goal (like many other long range goals) if it will fall in your category of "always promised, but never delivered." Because I wonder if you are getting goals mixed up with promises.

As for ALPA being all things to all pilots, I don't think ALPA is constructed that way anyways. Sure, ALPA does do work in DC to help the profession especially in dealing with aviation safety. But really, each MEC represents THEIR pilots as they see fit without ALPA national getting involved. Again, ALPA national mostly provides the "tool box" and the MECs use it when they need to.

Fly safe

 

[USCtrojan]

Thanks Nevets, again. Great points.

Trojan

 

[strega7]

But really, each MEC represents THEIR pilots as they see fit without ALPA national getting involved. Again, ALPA national mostly provides the "tool box" and the MECs use it when they need to.

Fly safe

Doesn't the ALPA National president have to sign each CBA the members vote on? Has there ever been a case where a pilot group has created a CBA with management and then it's not signed into effect by the ALPA National President?

 

[Nevets]

Doesn't the ALPA National president have to sign each CBA the members vote on? Has there ever been a case where a pilot group has created a CBA with management and then it's not signed into effect by the ALPA National President?

Yes, that is correct. I don't know about your second question.

My point is that the ALPA president or anyone, other than the MEC, cannot tell the negotiating committee what to bargain for.