High School To The Airlines - Roadmap

[Hamburger]

First, my hat is off to Undaunted for starting a thread offering good, solid advice to kids wanting to get in the game. We disagree severly concerning the Age 60 rule, but it is truly refreshing to see he cares about the younger generation. Kudos.

The previous advice is spot on. Many factors to consider. The fact is, having a degree is a filter when it comes to getting many jobs. Many give preference at the least, require at the most. I have never seen an Aviation degree officially given more weight than another degree. Psychology seems to equal Aeronautical Science, officially.

A lot of people will tell you to get a non-aviation degree as a backup. While that may be practical, I personally feel that is loser talk. Don't plan for failure, go all in. Assuming that a degree is financially available to you and you truly want to be a pilot, why the hell would you get a degree that is not going to maximize your understading of your chosen profession? If I wanted to be a CEO, I'd go to business school, not medical school. If I wanted to be a scientist, I wouldn't go to business school.

You will see a lot of bile spewed at guys from Riddle. There is a high Dork-factor there to be sure, but it actually is a top-notch education. It's a good feeling to be sitting in the lobby for an interview with a bunch of FBO guys next to you. Are they good pilots? Probably. Can they handle the job/training, sure. But they would have to be extremely self-motivated to have an understanding of Swept wing aerodynamics (mach tuck/dutch roll/etc...), Turbojet systems (Accumulators, Pressurization, Hydraulics), Avionics (What a transponder looks like on an occiliscope), Weather (adiabatic lapse rates, wave cylcones), Physiology (the difference between Stagnant and Systolic Hypoxia). I can almost guarentee that none of them know that cracks are stop-drilled because a circle brings the K-factor to infinity, thus minimizing propogation. My Aerodynamics class was taught by the guy that literally wrote the Book on Single engine performance (Raise the Dead).
Are these things trivial and ridiculous? Absolutely. Do they have any bearing on real life pilot operations on the line? Very little. Do interviewers ask you questions on such things? Absolutely.

If you have the opportunity to get an education and you want to be a pilot, I strongly suggest you get one in an aviation related field. If your head is going to be filled with information you'll never use, it might as well be aviation information. If my shakers are going off and things are core-locking on me, I don't want random Accountant/Psychology/Communications bouncing around inside my head.

And by no means am I endorsing Riddle. When I went there, it was a comprable $300/credit hour. In the last ten years it has tripled to $1100/hr. Rip Off. Has the cost anything else (besides gas) quadrupled in the last 10 years? UND and Boilermakers and others have good Aviation programs. Most important, pursue an INTERNSHIP with the employer you desire to retire with.

If you are not finacially able to deal with, or don't want to pay for college, Miltary is a VERY good option. Look into it. There will ALWAYS be jobs for military pilots.

If Mil and College aren't your bag for whatever reason, this is one of those jobs left where you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps and have the career you desire. You have to have the ratings, but beyond that, (bad pun I know), the sky is the limit. Be congenial and respectful to EVERYONE you encounter along the way. This is a small and unforgiving world. Your private pilot student could very well end up being on the hiring board at the job you desire. Having buddies write letters for you and walk your stuff into the Chief Pilot are FAR more valuable than any credentials on your resume.

If you want to work for Southwest, get a job throwing bags for Southwest while you are in College/training. Many, Many bag throwers end up being pilots.
Bottom line, if this is what you want to do (and it probably is if you've found this board), Nothing will be able to stop you. Unless you are very lucky, you are going to come on hard times when it seem like this was a bad idea. The worst pilot job is better than working at the DMV, an bank, or a (gasp) cubicle. Keep smiling and GOOD LUCK! I guarentee it will be a hell of a ride.

Let's not start jumping on me about the post. I'm not trying to play "Mr. I'm so smart guy." I've already stated that books don't make the pilot. This info seems to stick in my head for whatever reason. I wish I could replace it with my wife's birthday, but it just isn't happeing. I'm not the aviation all day and all night guy either. There is a standing policy at my house that any airplane/work talk is punished by pounding whatever drink gets handed to you by as many people as can hand them to you. This keeps it to a minimum, I've found. Many, Many other things to talk about.

The only point I'm trying to make is that it is that in a very competetive industry, it is logical to make yourself as competetive as possible.

 

[Hamburger]

All else being said, When you decide to join this profession, do so knowing that it is a Federal Law requires that you retire when you reach sixty years of age. Every pilot alive has known this when they decided to join this profession.

If you are not comfortable with this and you desire to work past the age of sixty, you should seek other employment. This, or plan on working in any other sector of aviation. Charter, Corporate, Scenic, Instruction, Float fly-fishing, really anything other than Airline will let you work past Sixty.

Please understand that one of the reasons that you recieve that first call from an Airline to get your first job, it is because those who held the job before you moved on to your "dream job" airline. Those that move on from your 'first job' airline to your "dream job" airline do so, in large part, to having to replace those at your "dream job" airline who were forced to retire.

Therefore, if those who desire to raise the age 60 retirement, knowing full well that was the deal when THEY got THEIR first job, get their way and change the rules, those of you gunning for your first job will have to wait (five years?) to start your career. Keep in mind that those who are nearing the age sixty are Baby Boomers who vastly outnumber those of you trying to get that first job. For every one trying to get in at the bottom, there are two or three at the top, clogging up the pipes.

As I have previously stated, UndauntedFlyer, This is a great thread and I respect you and the fact that you started it. However, if this is truly in the interest of informing the next generation. I feel it is very important to fill them in on how the age 60 rule affects their potential careers.

 

[JSky26]

Great post Hamburger!

 

[pilotyip]

Hamburger, come on High school er and age 60 in the same thread? No one has any idea what will happen in the next 44 years to airline retirement age, most of us could not even count on collecting on a bet placed on what retirement age will be in 2050. BTW if you want to be an airline pilot, you start flying airplanes as soon as possible, flight hours and experience get you your next job. Be prepared for disappointment and only fly because you like to.

 

[Wingmaster]

Age sixty will be gone by the years end.

 

[instructordude]

I love flying period. It shouldn't be about the money, unfortunately it seems like it has. I just got pounded on the major board for only saying that half of a Delta pilot salary is nice. Keep the dream up guys!

 

[pilotyip]

Hang in there instructordude you got the right attitude you will make it. Fly because you like to and this is a great career. I am still living my dream from 5 yrs old, 58 yrs later.

 

[Regul8r]

If I may offer some advice

I love flying period. It shouldn't be about the money, unfortunately it seems like it has. I just got pounded on the major board for only saying that half of a Delta pilot salary is nice. Keep the dream up guys!

If you're not supposed to mow another man's lawn, stay out of his yard. That being said - I agree to a degree with you. I love flying too and we wouldn't have to worry about the money in a perfect world. Unfortunately the cold hard reality is that it is not about the flying, it's about the retirement. As UndauntedFlyer pointed out on another post (and I did read a similar article in the newspaper yesterday) you need a HUGE nest egg just to live comfortably after you retire. We're talking on the order of 2-3 million saved up IF you plan to have a conventional retirement and not work after 60. Crunch the numbers on that for $50,000 a year for 30 years and you don't even come close to what you need. There are no more retirement plans anymore, it is up to you alone to save for it. So unfortunately it does come down to money and money alone. While I like YIP's positive attitude, to a large degree it all boils down to the $$$. Keep the white side up!

 

[pilotyip]

Regul8r, I also agree it is all about money. I have turned down flying jobs in the past because you just could not live on the pay. But what is enought is where the difference comes from. I am shooting for 80% of my present income when I retire and I should be able to do that. A cobo of military retirement, SSN and investments made since 1984. This number is well below what many people consider adequate, but since I can't hold a job I have always tried to live below my means.

 

[GreazerGriff7]

my journey

just to shed some light on what I did...maybe it will help other youngsters like myself.

I made sure to take as many accelerated and Advanced Placement courses in high School, and had enough credits by the end of the first Semester of my Senior year to graduate early. I was actually a few credits short but I worked it out with the school board and principle to allow me to take an online Spanish class through a University, which took place of those credits I was missing.

I already had my private that I worked on throughout highschool since I turned 16..So the best option for me was ATP (www.allatps.com). Started the 90-day program in January..while the rest of my classmates were starting the second semester of their senior year. Finished up with ATP and all my ratings by the end of April, then came back to my hometown to walk with my class in graduation and go to mexico on my senior trip. When I got back from the trip I had a couple days to get out to Florida to begin instructing for ATP.

I instructed at ATP throughout the summer and fall...and was hired at a Regional Airline in December..just 7 months after my "official" high school graduation date.

I enrolled at Utah Valley State shortly after I was hired at ATP..and they gave me credit for all my ratings. I am almost half way through having my degree in Aviation Science.. Although I pretty much agree with everyone that an Aviation Science degree is completely useless out of aviation (and even within aviation), it is still a neccessity to be able to check the "degree" box on a major airline or corporate operator application.

Looking back on it, I dont think there is a quicker way to go from having your Private to the right seat in an RJ. Am I as experienced as someone who flew freight for a couple years before the airlines? No, probably not..however I do believe that instructing in an environment such as ATP was very beneficial. Will I be as "educated" as some of my buddies that are currently attendending a real college? Probably not.. but then again they do spend quite a bit of time burning their brain cells from the college lifestyle.

I feel like the airline career is all about Seniority.. so the quicker you get there, the quicker you can get on that list.

Hope this helped some of you wanting to get into this career..if I can be any help feel free to PM me or reply.

 

[JSky26]

Greazer,

Sounds like you made it pretty quick, but why the rush, I'm curious? You will be flying jets for the next 40 years!

I thought of going that route but I decided to go to a state school with a collegiate aviation program. College, is not only for the degree, but for the experience it offers. I go to school with about 200 aviation students, but also 20,000 other undergrads. It's great to get away from aviation at times and enjoy the "other side" of life. I think too many people forget to stop and take a breath! I don't know if I could survive going to a school like Embry-Riddle with aviation geekdom around me 24/7!
Don't get me wrong, I work hard with my aviation stuff and will be flight instrucing my last few semesters down here while finishing up school. I might not have that regional job lined up immediately after school, but like I said before I'm in no rush, and I do realize that college is a big player on the maturation process.

Killing brain cells is just part of the game my man...haha

Good Luck to everyone.

 

[GreazerGriff7]

JSky,

that was the major decision I had to make.. College Experience or Job Experience.. I chose the latter..others may feel different. Sure, sometimes I feel like I'm missing out on the whole college lifestyle.. but I'm perfectly satisfied living it through my friends and the week or so a month I visit them.

And you ask why the rush? Thats just personal preference for me... I'd be bored to death sitting on my @ss 4-6 hours out of the day in a lecture hall learning about English poetry (or even some aviation degree BS) and living in a dorm with some dude..even if I can party with a bunch of hot college broads nightly. But thats me..and I HATE SCHOOL.

I'm not knocking college and the experiences it offers.. but I feel like the traditional route is not entirely necessary for an airline career.

 

[MDAutry]

I agree with you both... It is about what you want out of life. If it is your goal to sit in an RJ and nap for 4 hours a day or if it is your goal to sit in a psych class and nap for 4 hours then thats your deal. However, I am building time right now and I think a lot about enjoying every day I fly...

 

[FlyBieWire]

This is a great thread for information. My high school guidance counselor is clueless on all of this. She tells me that I need all kinds of advanced math and science. I made a "B" in Algebra and she said I should just about give up all hope of becoming a pilot.

I think I like the college idea as UndauntedFlyer and others have suggested.

 

[mhcasey]

I certainly don't have the wisdom of some of the guys on this board (not sure if you looked at Undaunted's profile), but here is what I've concluded as a college sophomore at UT majoring in Philosophy. Bare with me, this could be a long one...

I should have gone to OU, Purdue, or some other college where I could get a non-aviation degree, but probably double in Aviation with transfer credits from getting ratings and training. Why?

First, Austin is not a good place for general aviation. There are not many places for training (thanks to Michael Dell), and while I know I can and will find good instructors, I'll be driving at least 30 minutes both ways for the rest of my training. Things might still work out for me here...I'm trying to get a job handling bags for SW or some other odd job for the FBO's out here.

Second, it's not as hard to double major as you'd think, depending on what you decide to do. I'm also in a very distinguished program specific to UT called "Plan II Honors." I won't go into details, but it is a "well rounded" degree in itself, with a bit more liberal arts than math or sciences. I ended up adding the Philosophy degree because Plan II required 9 hours of philosophy anyway, so I was already pretty well on my way. I have a lot of random hours that won't apply towards anything except elective hours, but I'll still be able to easily graduate in 3 years with degrees in Plan II Honors, Philosophy, and minor in history (with the option to take 1 more class in English, Rhetoric, Spanish, and I think several other areas to have minors in those also).

I could graduate in 3 years with no problem, but I'm going to stretch it out while I get my aviation training, and have Dad's health insurance and free flying (he flies for AA) for another few years. How am I already so close to finishing? AP CLASSES!!! Take as many as you can, and study for the exams. I say again, STUDY FOR AP EXAMS!!! Once more, STUDY FOR AP EXAMS!!! I got a decent bit of credit from AP exams, but could have had tons more had I actually studied for them (I'd say I studied about 1 hour a month in high school, 1 hour total for all of my AP exams). Be sure to do well especially on the Latin AP, or any other language AP, because most colleges, if they require a language, make you go to class 5 days a week for that language. 5 days a week for any class is horrible, so just test out of it. Don't even worry about what your respective college will take for AP credit. Just study hard for everything. Maybe you'll end up transferring, or changing majors, and all of those random AP credit hours will help.

Stay in those organizations you're in in high school. I quit debate my junior year because I didn't have time between playing in 5 bands and on 2 hockey teams. I don't really regret it, but I wish there was a way I could have continued debate. Fortunately, philosophy is the same thing but better, so take a few philosophy courses in college. Keep up with the math. High school algebra is ultra lame compared to college math, or even calculus, so don't worry about your goofball algebra teacher. I loved calculus in high school, but even it seems boring having tasted some of the "more exciting" areas of math like number theory and non-euclidean geometry.

If you've got time, get your PPL and anything else you can do before college, or really just ASAP. If you feel like you're falling behind, take a summer to knock out your instrument, or get some aerobatic training. When you get to college, DO NOT COMMIT TO A 1 YEAR LEASE!!! I'll be finishing up my PPL soon and would kill to get out of my lease (goes through summer) to go home, live for free, and get my instrument at any of the fantastic FBO's in DFW. Since I'm stuck with a summer lease, I have to stay here, take summer classes, and drive to Georgetown (a nightmare) several times a week to do training up there. Keep summers open for cool things. Even if it's not flying, go study abroad or get an internship someplace. Taking classes is a lame way to spend a summer, especially when you're a senior going into your third year.

When you get to school, if you have any inclination whatsoever, try out an engineering program. Almost any other major will be a waste of your time, unless you like paying tons of money to get an education you could have gotten for 3.50 in late fees at the public library. Alright, that's a bit harsh, but most of my classes have "followed the textbook" pretty closely, and I've wondered why I am there. Do not take history classes in college unless you have to. If the topic interests you, find out what textbook they use, and rent it from the library. Stick to technical areas and you will be rewarded with an education that will be difficult to teach yourself. Major in liberal arts and waste time reading books you could have read for enjoyment and without deadlines. Major in business and learn common sense while doing group projects with a bunch of idiots. Major in "commuications" and learn nothing. Major in the social sciences (a branch of liberal arts I guess?) and learn how to B.S., or just do that in your other classes when you have papers due.

Apply for scholarships. There are millions out there. Tons don't even get claimed. You can apply for many as early as your junior year, so don't waste time.

I think that's about it. I have my thoughts on how things will pan out, but in regards to specific hirings, check the "interviews" forum and ask some of these guys that have been around for what you need to do to get hired. I hope my thoughts will help you make the best choices in getting started.

To summarize: Go to a cool college that has good aviation nearby (I've gotten the impression from other threads that training through the schools part 121 is typically a bit pricey, so look for schools with good FBO's nearby and take from them...if I had to do it again, I'd go to OU because I could get instate tuition...if you keep your grades up and have good test scores, you can get instate almost anywhere though. There are a lot of aviation scholarships for part 121 schools though). Do your best on AP tests. Try engineering or some other technical field - Aerospace, physics, math...anything along those lines. Do them first, and take liberal arts on the side if you're interested. Remember, you'll have the rest of your life to read great books and think deep thoughts, but it's not real easy to teach yourself multi variable calculus or advanced thermodynamics on your own (I know first hand). Just make sure you like wherever you end up. If you end up at a school where you'll be making big bucks hauling freight and rich people by your junior year, but you're miserable and have no social life, it's probably still going to be a long 4 years.

Sorry for being longwinded. If you have any other questions, please ask.

Good luck!

One more thought: Remember to have fun in college. There aren't many ultimate frizbee clubs for old guys. My training will probably slow down in the fall/winter because I know after these next two years, I'll never be able to lay someone out on the ice, or get in a legal fight again. Go crazy for flying, but make sure you don't pass up too many once in a lifetime oppurtunities for fun at college.