Hi Ils 21 Krow

[RJP]

Anyone happen to have a copy of the Widowmaker approach to Roswell, NM? I've been looking for it on-line but no luck. I seem to remember it being a difficult bugger but can't remember what it was like.

If anyone has it, maybe you could post a link or scan and PM me.

Thanks.

 

[srjorion]

KROW HI ILS 21

 

[Hawker rider]

seems to be a pretty straight forward approach to me. A little "unusual" if you are only used to the sea level elevation airports with no terrain issues. But also not the widowmaker that I was expecting...

 

[Swede]

For USAF pilots in training at Del Rio, it was definitely "The Widowmaker". Remember that trainees flying this have about 0 instrument experience, and the instrumentation in the T38-A and especially the T37 was flat-out primitive. When we went from the 37 to the 38 and had a real HSI, we thought we'd gone to heaven.

With modern VNAV/LNAV, there is no such thing as a widowmaker, they're all easy.

 

[FN FAL]

That's an interesting approach. 16 DME isn't that tight of an ARC, but you sure do have to lose a lot of altitude during this approach. I'm not familiar to this area, the terrain must be outstanding there?

seems to be a pretty straight forward approach to me. A little "unusual" if you are only used to the sea level elevation airports with no terrain issues. But also not the widowmaker that I was expecting...

Yea, I was expecting that one that uses a localizer specifically for the missed approach proceedure. The one I'm thinking of, requires at missed that you make a climbing turn almost 150 degrees outbound and you intercept a localizer to fly the missed. The localizer is there specifically for the missed approach guidence and you fly away from the antenna...which is not colocated with a runway.

That's the one I was thinking of when I saw "widow maker".

 

[minitour]

...The one I'm thinking of, requires at missed that you make a climbing turn almost 150 degrees outbound and you intercept a localizer to fly the missed. The localizer is there specifically for the missed approach guidence and you fly away from the antenna...which is not colocated with a runway.

That's the one I was thinking of when I saw "widow maker".

VOR into Aspen?

I've been killed about 25 times in a row on Flight sim because of that one...I can find the runway, but when I try to execute the miss, I seem to be getting "granite poisoning"

-mini

*edit*
This one?
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20041223/SW-1/ase_vor_dme_or_gps_c.pdf

I think I realize now why I'm dying on the M.A.. That d*mn LOC is a "back course"....it helps if you actually brief the approach I suppose

 

[FN FAL]

VOR into Aspen?

I've been killed about 25 times in a row on Flight sim because of that one...I can find the runway, but when I try to execute the miss, I seem to be getting "granite poisoning"

-mini

*edit*
This one?
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20041223/SW-1/ase_vor_dme_or_gps_c.pdf

I think I realize now why I'm dying on the M.A.. That d*mn LOC is a "back course"....it helps if you actually brief the approach I suppose

Yea that's the one, thanks mini.

 

[AA717driver]

ASE SUCKS! Even with the bells and whistles.TC

 

[Vector4fun]

Ah, they've changed it some. Used to be the IAF was ABUCK. Probably after Roswell app. got Radar. Terrain is not a factor in the approach. The original approach, (btw, this is a military high alt. penetration), was designed to keep the jets clear of the busier airways when Roswell was a non-radar approach control. Degree divergence rule. Maintain 150 til 11 DME on the 360 radial made sure you were separated from aircraft on V68/V68N at 140 and below, aob 80 crossing the 020R kept you clear of 90 on V280, etc. HMN and REE used to send flights of 4 over, they'd get stacked at ABUCK 150, 160, 170, 180; and we'd do timed approaches, (sort of), having 3 aircraft on the approach at the same time; NON-RADAR . Then we also had the HI-TACAN going west of the VORTAC, and any time the WX was VFR or better, we'd run both approaches at the same time. T-38s on the ILS, F111s on the TACAN, and B747 or DC10 in the VFR pattern. What fun....


I can recall running between 30 and 40 instrument apps and dep an hour without Radar, just manual control. Just try to get that many IFRs in/out of one airport without radar nowadays. They don't even TEACH manual control like that any more...

 

[Hawker rider]

Actually I just got rated on a 747 where you actually have some great navigational equipment to use. I find it so much tougher than flyin the Lear 23/24 i was used to where we really had only the basic instruments.

It's just what you are used to i guess. Sometimes you can have too much automation at your disposal too...

 

[RJP]

Ah, they've changed it some. Used to be the IAF was ABUCK. Probably after Roswell app. got Radar. Terrain is not a factor in the approach. The original approach, (btw, this is a military high alt. penetration), was designed to keep the jets clear of the busier airways when Roswell was a non-radar approach control. Degree divergence rule. Maintain 150 til 11 DME on the 360 radial made sure you were separated from aircraft on V68/V68N at 140 and below, aob 80 crossing the 020R kept you clear of 90 on V280, etc. HMN and REE used to send flights of 4 over, they'd get stacked at ABUCK 150, 160, 170, 180; and we'd do timed approaches, (sort of), having 3 aircraft on the approach at the same time; NON-RADAR . Then we also had the HI-TACAN going west of the VORTAC, and any time the WX was VFR or better, we'd run both approaches at the same time. T-38s on the ILS, F111s on the TACAN, and B747 or DC10 in the VFR pattern. What fun....


I can recall running between 30 and 40 instrument apps and dep an hour without Radar, just manual control. Just try to get that many IFRs in/out of one airport without radar nowadays. They don't even TEACH manual control like that any more...

Yeah, I seem to remember having half a dozen T-38s stacked and holding to do this thing. Not much fun when you're a new instrument student and you've got helmet fire already.

Thanks for posting the plate!

 

[avbug]

Aspen is hardly a deathtrap. Events such as the Gulfstream loss there were pilots pushing to get in when they clearly should not. In that particular case, rather than doing what they should have done, they elected to find a road and follow it in, and had the wrong lights.

Don't push your limits in there, you'll be fine.

Yes, the missed has you intercepting the localizer outbound, not in. If you don't have a HSI, then it's reverse sensing, if you do have a HSI, set the inbound course and forget about it.

We were into Aspen a few hours before the gulfstream crash, and ended up going missed and over to Eagle. The weather wasn't good. The gulfstream should have done the same, but decided to play hunt and peck with ground reference at dusk. The entire approach, including the missed, is not a particuarly challenging proceedure. It is, however, quite unforgiving when not followed. So long as you stay on the proceedure, regardless of the rocks and terrain around you, you cannot hit a thing. Stray from the proceedure, and all bets are off.

 

[sqwkvfr]

If you don't have a HSI, then it's reverse sensing, if you do have a HSI, set the inbound course and forget about it.

Forgive my ignorance, and please keep in mind that I literally got my instument rating yesterday, but are you sure that flying a backcourse outbound (as required by the missed) would give you reverse sensing?

 

[minitour]

Forgive my ignorance, and please keep in mind that I literally got my instument rating yesterday, but are you sure that flying a backcourse outbound (as required by the missed) would give you reverse sensing?

no...flying the front course outbound (basically following a backcourse) is reverse sensing...

I see what you mean though...that could be mis-interpreted...but check which side of the feather is "colored" in...

-mini

 

[sqwkvfr]

no...flying the front course outbound (basically following a backcourse) is reverse sensing...

I see what you mean though...that could be mis-interpreted...but check which side of the feather is "colored" in...

-mini

That's what I thought....perhaps it's been changed since avbug was last there.

 

[minitour]

That's what I thought....perhaps it's been changed since avbug was last there.

No, he's right...

It is technically a front course. If you flew towards the antenna, you would have "regular" sensing. But flying away from the antenna (outbound on the front course) will give you reverse sensing (just like flying a Backcourse inbound) unless you've got an HSI set to the inboundcourse...then you've got "normal" sensing...

I just think of back courses better as a front course that I'm flying away from...which is why I talk about back courses and front courses together...

I realize that's kind of confusing so thanks for catching that...I don't wanna start teaching a bunch of students confusing stuff in an already confusing "system"

-mini

 

[PropsForward]

That climbing right turn to 14000 in a C172 is a bear!

 

[FN FAL]

There's no such thing as reverse sensing...think about it. If you are left of course and do a 360 degree turn while remaining left of course, your ILS head will continue to indicate that you are left of course. No magical changing of the sensing will occur.

 

[sqwkvfr]

But flying away from the antenna (outbound on the front course) will give you reverse sensing (just like flying a Backcourse inbound) unless you've got an HSI set to the inboundcourse...then you've got "normal" sensing...

That would be great if what you describe was depicted as part of the missed approach...however, it is not.

Look at the plate again. That is NOT a frontcourse depicted on that chart...please note the word "backcourse" next to the localizer symbol and note which side is shaded. (This is a frontcourse) There should be no question that one would be utilizing the backcourse as part of the missed...to wit: flying OUTBOUND on the backcourse..."needles on the right, you're in the white."...no reverse sensing.

I simplify it like this...if you're on a localizer course, whether inbound or outbound and the shaded or feathered side is to your right, you will not get reverse sensing....right?

 

[Swede]

Or how about "TOGA, Flaps 15, Gear Up, LNAV..."

Man I'm getting lazy, too lazy to even look at that approach.

 

[avbug]

They're right...it's a back course. Set in 300 on the (e)HSI for normal sensing, or forget the OBS for a normal old fashioned navhead and fly normal sensing.

 

[minitour]

That would be great if what you describe was depicted aspart of the missed approach...however, it is not...

yep, sorry...I knew what I was thinking, I just didn't type it correctly...a little lysdexia there...oh well

another one of those days

Shaded side on the right and you've got "normal sensing". Shaded side on the left and it's "reversed".

Although, more correctly, as FN FAL said, there isn't technicallyanything such as reverse sensing. It's just a "simpler" way tothink about it for most people...unless you've got an HSI...then youdon't think about it at all...

-mini

 

[mattpilot]

Sorry to get back on subject , but how is the ILS 21 approach into KROW a "widowmaker" ? No mountains around and its fairly flat. I just flew it on flightsim and its like any other approach - simple. Nearest "significant" elevation was maybe 100nm away.

I must be dense

 

[GravityHater]

The main confusing thing about that particular procedure (the missed part) has always been:

It is that it is the ONLY TIME you will ever see BACK COURSE printed on a chart in which you are flying OUTBOUND on a localizer. [that I have seen] (well now someone will find another example)

Any other time you see the words "BC", you are flying towards the antenna with reverse sensing. We are trained to expect it.

Hopefully in real life you will notice as you turn to intercept that the needle is on the left side of the gauge, and drifting into the center and your natural tendancy to track the needle will overwhelm any higher thought processes!

 

[mattpilot]

The main confusing thing about that particular procedure (the missed part) has always been:

It is that it is the ONLY TIME you will ever see BACK COURSE printed on a chart in which you are flying OUTBOUND on a localizer. [that I have seen] (well now someone will find another example)

Any other time you see the words "BC", you are flying towards the antenna with reverse sensing. We are trained to expect it.

Hopefully in real life you will notice as you turn to intercept that the needle is on the left side of the gauge, and drifting into the center and your natural tendancy to track the needle will overwhelm any higher thought processes!

When you see a localizer, White part is 90Hz and dark part is 150Hz ( did i mix that up?).

Whenever you are on the White side it will indicate to the right, and when your on the dark side, it will indicate to the left. So when you see something like that and your not sure if its BC or whatever, just look on what side your on. Does that help?

EDIT:

Say you're approaching an EAST-WEST localizer with a 90(degree) final approach course from the S and the southern part is white, you know you will have a BC approach - or reverse sensing.

 

[GravityHater]

when your on the dark side, it will indicate to the left.

OOOOOOHHHHH, *NEVER* FLY ON THE DARK SIDE, OBIE!!!
just kidding, I like your memory aid though MP.

 

[mattpilot]

OOOOOOHHHHH, *NEVER* FLY ON THE DARK SIDE, OBIE!!!
just kidding, I like your memory aid though MP.

If you are like 100LL, you can also put a political twist on it. The LEFTies are evil, thus on the Dark side

 

[RJP]

Sorry to get back on subject , but how is the ILS 21 approach into KROW a "widowmaker" ? No mountains around and its fairly flat. I just flew it on flightsim and its like any other approach - simple. Nearest "significant" elevation was maybe 100nm away.

I must be dense

You're not dense, just a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing dumbass.

Keep logging that flightsim time.

 

[mattpilot]

You're not dense, just a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing dumbass.

Keep logging that flightsim time.

Oh i'm sorry.... I guess i'm not quite as good as you. Perhaps your highness would care to explain what makes it the widowmaker? Oh, and i'm sure you have a better idea then flightsim? I guess to meet your standard i'd have to buy a plane ticket to roswell, rent a high performance plane and do the approach like that?

Yea.... whatever frenchie...

 

[RJP]

Oh i'm sorry.... I guess i'm not quite as good as you. Perhaps your highness would care to explain what makes it the widowmaker? Oh, and i'm sure you have a better idea then flightsim? I guess to meet your standard i'd have to buy a plane ticket to roswell, rent a high performance plane and do the approach like that?

Yea.... whatever frenchie...

Well, since you asked. The folks at the FBO used to call it the Widowmaker. They had t-shirts and mugs for sale for the military guys that did it during UPT.

Yes, I have a better idea than your flightsim experience. Yes, you should personally go fly there, rent a jet and give it a shot. Yes, you're still an redneck dumbass.

Bon nuit.