Hey NJA/Teamsters...

[Live4flyng]

Am I reading all these posts correctly? I hope not, Viva and F2000.

Are you trying to say:

An NJA First Officer making $27,000/year should give up their seniority to a pilot who isn't even working for NJA yet? And, a new hire from a former fractional should not start at the bottom of the seniority list?

NJA pilots have had nothing but time to think about $27,000/year while other fractionals rub it in their faces that they will make 10% above NJA when a contract is obtained. No one was making bad references about non union pilots. In a union, seniority is everything and it's based on date of hire. If you want to talk about a sour can of worms; tell a pilot who has been working for a company longer than you that, you are a new hire now senior to him/her.

Example: F2000, you will be flying the Bravo for NJE, an NJA pilot with more experience has been hired to take your place, sorry.

Example: Viva, Options just hired a former NJA guy who has 5 more hours in the same airplane as you, we are going to make him senior to you and pay him more, sorry.

There is no hard feelings toward pilots who haven't been hired, they shouldn't expect to bump someone on the seniority list either. Like it or not, when a pilot is hired, they go to the bottom of the list, that is how seniority works. There will be no merger!

What some of the other pilots were suggesting is if Options were Teamsters and something happened, it is possible a deal could be worked based on date of membership.

Example: If Options were Teamsters as of 12/06/03 and NJA hired 250 pilots after that date, and a deal was made to aquire a large amount of pilots from Options, then it leaves wiggle room in negotiations.

 

[VivaZapata]

NJA pilots have had nothing but time to think about $27,000/year while other fractionals rub it in their faces that they will make 10% above NJA when a contract is obtained

This is not a logical reason. The folks that "rub it in" are in the minority. Most of us have the perspective that we are no better than anyone just because we wear different ties. We all do the same job.

When it comes to hiring off the street, I agree with you 100%. Seniority should be the only determining factor. HOWEVER, if there is a hostile take-over/merger that results in NJ F/O's moving to captain positions in former FLOPS aircraft, don't expect FLOPS pilots to respect the (unionized) pilots at NJ for not objecting and using their representation to hammer out a fair meshing of the pilot rank and file. A Net Jets pilot at the bottom of the NJ seniority list should not automatically shoot up to being halfway up the list at the expense of FLOPS pilots.

Hopefully, if there is a take-over, BOTH seniority lists will have been considered. If it results in all FLOPS pilots being tossed on to the street, then yes, as "new-hires", your point is only technically correct.......not ethically correct.

 

[Semore Butts]

Semore MAth!

OK,

I'm RTS, I'll buy out options, and put them on the same pay scale as Netjets.

Net income? Wow!!!! I just made a bunch more money!

I want to do whats fair, but the fact of the matter is your being bought out by a union shop.

As it was explained to me with NJI, we have to consider that NJI and Options are bringing their airplanes with them. This is an important factor as well.

As far as the pilots not being friendly to each other? I've never had a problem chatting with the other companies.

Flex guys are a no brainer, I was a Flex guy! Options guys are cool. If someone doesn't want to talk, well F686ck um, I don't want to talk to someone that has a stick up their a$$ anyway.

I run into the HAwker Options guys all the time at the service center, no problem.

The more the merrier when it comes to a contract vote.

 

[NJIG4Driver]

I just got through taking a look at all the postings and felt compelled to reply. I've been at NJI for about three years and feel in some ways we all feel the same. I hear our crews complaining they feel as though they've been given the cold shoulder on a regular basis by NJA crews after attempting conversation. We can probably go on and on with stories about hearing of people who got their feelings hurt by someone from the other side. Here's my personal experience. I have friends at both NJA and Flight Options and am convinced that the vast majority of people at all the companies are good folks. We have our share of "weirdos" here at NJI just like everybody else. It's just a percentage thing. Whenever you get a group of people together, you're going to have a token few who give everyone else a bad name. My hope if for everyone to get the best deal they can get for themselves and their group. I have no idea how it is all going to work out 5 or 10 years down the road. As for the NJI folding into the NJA ranks rumor, I can say the rumors floating around our shop are 180 degrees out of what you guys are hearing. I think that most of the rumor that is out there about what is going to happen is being generated by parties on both sides expressing wishful thinking on how they hope things pan out. I know that I and 99.9% of the people I work with on a daily basis at NJI are mostly happy with the way things are now in our organization. There are definately things we would like to see different but it does not include becoming part of a union. As to what the company wants to do, who knows. I know the word we get outta our headshed (Hilton Head) is that Woodbridge is happy with the current arrangement and things are continuing to be done to ensure that the two work groups remain separate. I guess we'll see what happens. I look forward to talking to all of you on the road. Best of Luck!

 

[Pugnacious G]

Union Yes

NJIG4Driver,

I agree with your sentiment absolutely on a personal level. The vast majority of frac pilots are great and friendly and a pleasure to talk to. Every group has it's bad 5%.

Now, on to business. When we get this contract thing done at NJA after paying our union dues for however many years we've been doing this, I guarantee that NJI will get a raise almost immediately. The reason for this will not be that a GIV driver SHOULD make a bit more than a DA-2000 driver (although I believe this to be true). The reason it will happen is to ensure that NJI doesn't vote in a union. It keeps NJ workers divided.


Back on a personal level: It does rub me the wrong way that NJI and perhaps the whole industry will get a raise just riding on the coattails of the 1900 dues paying Teamsters here at NJA. Oh yeah, and I don't think there's any mergers coming anytime soon with anybody, but I'd have to go with the staple crowd for any non-union pilots. Seniority lists are meaningless without a union. I'd be in favor of seat protection for y'all. I certainly wouldn't begrudge your retaining date-of-hire for vacation purposes, 401k vesting etc. but you couldn't bid out of your current fleet untill your date-of-merger seniority number allowed it. I don't think that's being mean. It's just fair. Someone convince me that I'm wrong.

 

[Diesel]

NJIG4Driver-

I know a couple of NJI guys. Guys that I'd truly call friends. Really nice guys. Anyway I think most of the animosity comes from the fact that the NJI guys are the fair haired boys of Netjets. Most of this comes from experiences that they have had with on the road while running into NJI crews. I recently experienced a gulfstream captain who was telling scheduling he would rather travel x airline vs y airline to his home because y is always a jetstream. If I had ever told a flight manager that they would have had a good laugh.

It's true the gulfstream boys get what they want when they want. A lot of the bad feelings also come from some of the fistfights that occurred in the hamilton parking lot when guys left from NJA to go to NJI.

I see it as the company trying to pit two companies against each other. They like the fact that we don't get a long. I had a captain tell me that there was no way we would get a raise. I thanked him for his insight and got off the crew bus. We all have stories like that on both sides. Although I met a real nice guy in HPN that was really pushing for us. He was friends with a lot of the same guys I know.

I don't have much to say to guys that we are working under the same roof who are non union. I say hi but we don't have much in common. You guys get treated better it's a fact. Take fly from home as an example. What about the nice roadbook's you have that has pictures of all the pilots so you know who your flying with. It's the little stuff like that we see.

Pretty soon we will be fighting for our right for a better life. You guys will be getting a better pay right after we sign. I'm waiting to see what happens IF we strike and the NJI crews pick up our trips while we are walking the line. Then that will be true animosity.

The options guys and the flex guys are a blast to talk to. We're all sweating our arse's off and have had some good laughs. By the way the new ties are awsome. Much better than the old ones.

 

[Dep676]

By the way the new ties are awsome. Much better than the old ones.

Amen to that brother. It was border line embarrasing to be wearing that sh!t rag around our necks.

 

[LR45JI]

Re: Union Yes

NJIG4Driver,

The reason it will happen is to ensure that NJI doesn't vote in a union. It keeps NJ workers divided.

AMEN:

American Airlines (APA) vs. American Eagle (ALPA) - is a case study that every aviation executive studies.