Here it is - American Airlines TA

[Johnlp3]

AA - APA - TA summary
Airline Pilot Contracts

 

[pilot141]

The TA is a POS. Attained by hanging both bankruptcy "We will file for bankruptcy at 3PM unless you agree" and a potential 1113 filing "This is what you'll get in bankruptcy" over the APA and then saying "What you've given us is $170M short. Try again. And again."

Repeat as needed. Make sure that you hold the APA out as the "intransigent" union that will drive AA into bankruptcy - "Greedy pilots refuse to negotiate - AMR forced to file bankruptcy". Nope, your concessions are not big enough. Do you REALLY want to see that headline tomorrow? Try again.

Move the bar as far as you can until the deadline comes and then take what the union has given you.

One (out of at least 2500) NO votes here.

 

[VMA214]

I would vote with a resounding NO!

Thats a pretty funny statement seeing how YOU HAVE NO VOTE
LOL!!!

 

[VMA214]

Well you got it.

Unfortunately, that appears to be the case. Hey, I'd like to sit here and trade quips but, I gotta go to work...

 

[Publishers]

UAL

United lead the way up and will and is leading the way down.

 

[ilinipilot]

What is the arguement for voting NO.
I agree it will hurt in the short term but I think its better than bankruptcy where they can will void contracts. I am surprised Carty hung to his word and actually kept them out of BK. I figured he was drooling at the mouth to get into court and start voiding contracts.
D

 

[festus]

CH 11 may still happen-AA says it has avoided it FOR NOW.

 

[Russ]

214
What years did you fly the scooter down in NYL?

 

[pilot141]

There is no guarantee that AMR will avoid bankruptcy. Don Carty today thanked the unions for helping him avoid an "immediate" Ch 11 filing. When we go Ch 11 we will begin negotiating DOWN from this lousy TA.

And as for voting no, I'm not about to vote for something that will put me 1,000 deep into the furlough. Would you? That's why we vote - if enough senior guys think this is a bad deal as well then it won't pass.

I'm also voting no because of the arm-twisting and last-minute a$$holery that went on. We've been without a contract for 20 months, but shove concessions down our throat while holding the Ch 11 axe over our heads and we get something done in 6 weeks? Bite me.

 

[typhoonpilot]

All the American pilots need to do is look at recent history to see what will happen. USAirways with David Seigel at the helm has shown exactly what is going to happen to every major airline pilot group, except perhaps Southwest. The USAirways bankruptcy filing was immediately after the pilot group passed a major concession package. Then you get round two of concessions that will chip away at your pension scheme and further reduce your W-2 earnings. That is followed by a termination of the defined benefit program. It doesn't end there though, some reason will be found to need just a little more, maybe 5% due to a war.

Have fun !! and remember those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Typhoonpilot

 

[justApilot]

pylut....

someone needs to bitch slap you

 

[WhiteCloud]

Make sure that you hold the APA out as the "intransigent" union that will drive AA into bankruptcy - "Greedy pilots refuse to negotiate - AMR forced to file bankruptcy". Nope, your concessions are not big enough. Do you REALLY want to see that headline tomorrow? Try again.

Now who gives a #@*& what the headlines say. Pilots aren't running for office or competing in some popularity contest.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm furloughed so I have no vote, but if I could I would vote for the choice that gives the best chance for getting me my job back the quickest. Bankruptcy may or may not be inevitable; that's an unknown. What is known is that under Chap 11 there will be deeper cuts in all ways imaginable. I truly don't understand the mentality of some who'd prefer to "take their chances with the bankruptcy judge", as if it somehow levels the playing field. The APA is truly faced with a choice of Bad or Worse. All this "Save the Profession" stuff is meaningless rhetoric. To me the better choice is clear; that any chance to avoid bankruptcy is well worth it. Voting Yes to the TA will likely keep the furloughs as minimal as possible.

I know it hard to actually vote for something that will result in hardship (recall the former TWA MEC voting on Supp CC), but the overwhelming odds are that in Chap 11 it'll be worse still. Of course Chap 11 may still come but I fail to see the relevance to today's TA.

So to those still employed by AA: however you vote, vote wisely and logically; not emotionally.

 

[VMA214]

What years did you fly the scooter down in NYL?

Russ, I PMed you but after thinking about it I was in Yuma at the RAG from Oct '81 to Oct '82.

 

[justApilot]

pylut...

I feel sorry for you. Your life must be so miserable. I would hate to be you.

 

[pilot141]

pylut , for your outstanding contributions to this discussion so far, I've referred your posts to the Moderators. Call me whatever you want, but I appreciate being able to discuss things intelligently on this board. Name-calling does not fall into this category.

TWA Dude talking to guys on the line the two biggest problems they see with the TA are the length (6 years) and the lack of any meaningful pay increases (1.5%/year). If I kept my job with this TA (which I'm not), at the end of it (5/1/09) I would be making $1/hr LESS than I am right now. That assumes 6 years of longevity and keeping the same seat. Many people will suck up the pay cut and roll back to a different seat also.

That being said, I think that the TA will pass. Unfortunately, the TWU is sounding more and more like they will vote their agreement down. If an agreement doesn't pass, then all bets are off. Expect AMR to file Ch 11 the next day.

The fun is just beginning.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Sorry to hear about your TA guys. I hope things turn around soon.

I was wondering what your cap is with the new TA.

Thanks.

 

[pilot141]

NYRANGERS , if you're talking Eagle aircraft cap it's going to be 110% of mainline narrowbody aircraft (right now that would mean about 660 aircraft for Eagle). There is some language concerning 70-seat RJs, weights above 64,500#, and numbers of flights into and between hubs that will restrict this to something lower than 660 (at least that's what the union is saying). Who knows how it will ultimately shake out.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYRANGERS , if you're talking Eagle aircraft cap it's going to be 110% of mainline narrowbody aircraft (right now that would mean about 660 aircraft for Eagle). There is some language concerning 70-seat RJs, weights above 64,500#, and numbers of flights into and between hubs that will restrict this to something lower than 660 (at least that's what the union is saying). Who knows how it will ultimately shake out.

Thanks for the info pilot141. I was refering to your hourly cap for pilots in a month. For example, at Delta we have a 75 hour cap on lines with pilots on furlough. I believe the TA raised yours to 78 hours.

I only ask because there is some talk of ours going to 85. This would be a terrible precedent if we allowed this in light of your 78 hours.

I wish all of you guys the best of luck and I pray for better days for all of us. You never know, things could get better almost as fast as they got bad. I wish all AA pilots good luck in the days ahead.

NYR

 

[pilot141]

OK, yes the hourly monthly max has gone up to 78 for lineholders. During the roadshow the union talked about trying to balance this- if we had gone to an 85 hour MMAX it would have meant an additional 1,050 furloughs. And since the hours still get flown by other pilots, the only cost advantage to the company was the health insurance, vacation and sick leave of the furloughed pilot. So when trying to come up with $660M in savings, a furloughee shoved out the door because of this was only worth (according to the company) $40,000. The union decided to try to save money in other ways rather than furlough guys and get almost no benefit for it.

When it could have been 3,500 furloughs I guess 2,500 doesn't look so bad.