Here come the lawyers

[PBRstreetgang]

You know what?

I say somebody needs to push a "No sue" clause in buying an airline ticket.

Something that bascially says that IF anything goes wrong, a lawsuit cannot be brought up against the pilots and/or the airline.

That should be a clause, a condition you agree to when you buy an airline ticket.

Don't like it? Tough. Take a train from JFK to LAX...

Well,
As much as I hate laywers, I am gonna have to disagree. What is the only thing that airline execs fear? Loosing more money than they already are loosing at the moment. If the crew was fatigued due to less than adequate rest issues(how many times have you heard "its legal"), then the airline should be hammered for a ton of cash. Then the execs will realize than min rest is not really a cash effective mode of operation. FAA rule making is written in blood and cash. If there were no financial implications to their poor managment skills do you think that things wouild improve?
PBR

 

[Dumbledore]

The runway was not NOTAM'd closed. I don't know where that came from.

!LEX 08/035 LEX 8/26 CLSD
!LEX 08/032 LEX TOWER 1603 (533 AGL) 7.3 E LGTS OTS (ASR 1036781)
TIL 0609082316
!LEX 08/024 LEX 4/22 ASDA 7003 TORA 7003 TODA 7003 LDA 6603
WEF 0608202200
!LEX 08/023 LEX 22 ILS GP OTS WEF 0608181330
!LEX 08/007 LEX 4/22 RCLL OTS
!LEX 08/005 LEX 4 ALS OTS
!LEX 07/013 LEX 4 TDZ LGT OTS
!LEX 01/030 LEX 4 MALSR CMSN WEF 0601311545

I copied this yesterday morning. Why don't you read through them carefully. This was supposedly in effect prior to the accident according to the Louisville FSS yesterday morning when I called them on their direct line. Perhaps that was incorrect but I used all the right sources - the same sources that the accident crew was approved to use.

So you tell me - where might the notion that 26 was closed have come from.

Do your homework!

 

[TOOL CRIB]

!LEX 08/035 LEX 8/26 CLSD
!LEX 08/032 LEX TOWER 1603 (533 AGL) 7.3 E LGTS OTS (ASR 1036781)
TIL 0609082316
!LEX 08/024 LEX 4/22 ASDA 7003 TORA 7003 TODA 7003 LDA 6603
WEF 0608202200
!LEX 08/023 LEX 22 ILS GP OTS WEF 0608181330
!LEX 08/007 LEX 4/22 RCLL OTS
!LEX 08/005 LEX 4 ALS OTS
!LEX 07/013 LEX 4 TDZ LGT OTS
!LEX 01/030 LEX 4 MALSR CMSN WEF 0601311545

I copied this yesterday morning. Why don't you read through them carefully. This was supposedly in effect prior to the accident according to the Louisville FSS yesterday morning when I called them on their direct line. Perhaps that was incorrect but I used all the right sources - the same sources that the accident crew was approved to use.

So you tell me - where might the notion that 26 was closed have come from.

Do your homework!

Yeah I checked too and I saw that yesterday. I just figured it was closed due to the accident. If it was closed for another reason, aren't they required to put up a big yellow X? That's why I assumed it was closed due to the accident. Looks like we're both working on assumptions here and there is no further argument until some facts come out.

 

[mckpickle]

Dumbladore and Vapp, You guys remind me of days past and how I still wish I was a low time pilot.

Cause when I was a private pilot I knew everything! I could judge anyone, and knew how everyone SHOULD have handled a situation. Close to 9000 hours later I'm a bit more humble and certainly more experienced. I hope for your sake that your family flys with me instead of you!

 

[Flash]

Getting back to the lawyer part of this thread, a question about the status of the jumpseater. I assume that as fare paying passengers one is covered by certain legal conditions when it comes to any type of claim that will be paid. Where would the jumpseater fit in? Do we as jumpseaters have the same coverage as a fare paying passenegr or would the family have to sue on their own, i.e. not covered by any type of group action. Not trying to be morbid, just practicle as this man's family has not only lost their loved one, but his income that I'm sure was relied on.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Hey Dumbledore,

The reason professionals discuss accidents such as these are to learn from them. I submit that I've been doing this WAY longer than you have, and know of more dead pilots with your attitude than those who issue their condolences and then try to learn something from the trajedy.

You sir, are an ass.

Prove me wrong. Who do you work for, what do you fly? How long have you been in this business?

Rekks

 

[RJP]

Another insightful quote from our vaunted Mr. Vandal sitting way up on his lofty perch...with his one thousand hours. Son, you need to get over yourself and STFU. You're low time, you know nothing of 121 and you are rather insensitive on top of it. But my compliments on your I love me webpage.

What's the link to his I Love Me page? Gotta get something to laugh at out of this forum today.

 

[Lear70]

That's because that's what caused the accident. It really doesn't matter, from a practical standpoint, why that happened.

Are you REALLY this dense, or are you just trying really, really hard to piss everyone here off like Vaab is?

WHY THEY TOOK THE WRONG RUNWAY IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS FOR US AS AVIATORS AT THIS POINT.

We cannot do ANYTHING to help the situation other than to comprehend the causal chain of events, commit them to memory, and make sure we step up OUR OWN situation awareness to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Understanding WHY they took off on the wrong runway is at the CORE of our ONLY way to contribute positively to this tragic event.

There's your accident in a nutshell. It's not a mistake I would have made.

Remember you said that when you royally screw something up that MIGHT have cost people their lives. No one is immune to fate.

Incidentally, you sound like you're currently at a regional. Can you send a copy of this thread along with your name, s.s. #, and email address to our hiring dept ?

People who are in that much denial of their own fallibilities are inherently UNSAFE to fly with.

Vaab, if you REALLY believe that EVERY PILOT OUT THERE should refuse to come to work with something on their mind, you are living in A DREAM WORLD.

The world goes on, even when we're having personal issues, and we still have to work, pay our bills, and continue on. If everyone having troubles didn't come to work, the aviation industry would grind to a halt.

How about a little dose of reality? Would you like some coffee with that, sir?

Jeez... some people...

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Lear70,

You are spot on with this poser.

Rekks

 

[John Pennekamp]

Where's a moderator when you need one?

One day after the wreck, every armchair internet nazi is duking it out over who knows more about the incident. Pathetic. Get a grip, men!

 

[VABB]

Vaab, if you REALLY believe that EVERY PILOT OUT THERE should refuse to come to work with something on their mind, you are living in A DREAM WORLD.

The world goes on, even when we're having personal issues, and we still have to work, pay our bills, and continue on. If everyone having troubles didn't come to work, the aviation industry would grind to a halt.

How about a little dose of reality? Would you like some coffee with that, sir?

Jeez... some people...

I didn't say not come to work when there is something on your mind, I said not to come to work when whatever is on your mind will interfere with your duties. If whatever is on your mind is so intense that you cannot concentrate, then call in sick.

 

[VABB]

Dumbladore and Vapp, You guys remind me of days past and how I still wish I was a low time pilot.

Cause when I was a private pilot I knew everything! I could judge anyone, and knew how everyone SHOULD have handled a situation. Close to 9000 hours later I'm a bit more humble and certainly more experienced. I hope for your sake that your family flys with me instead of you!

If you are so "humble", why do you keep bringing up your 9000 hours of experience??

And BTW, 9000 hours flying for a commuter airline is hardly experience worth bragging about, Mr. Humility.

 

[ReportCanoa]

And BTW, 9000 hours flying for a commuter airline is hardly experience woRth bragging about, Mr. Humility.

Moderators, I don't claim to be the most sane poster around, but please for the love of gawd, ban these clowns. They can't sue you, so why not ban the flamers?

 

[RJP]

Seriously, who has Vandal's I Heart Me website?

 

[wannabe22]

My thoughts keep going to the airTran F/O who was in the back... if that was his home airport, just imagine if he'd been sitting on the flight deck J/S instead of in the back. We probably would never have heard about it and this tragedy never would have happened. Instead he had to sit helpless through the whole sequence. Just unbelievable...

Where did you here there was an Air Tran pilot in the back? Just curios.

As money hungry and greedy as people get when a tragedy happens, I don't know if I would rather be the Capt. or FO.

Hate to say it but I totally agree with you there.

 

[Icelandair]

I think fatigue is a much bigger issue here than realized. If they got in late Friday, I know i can't just get into the hotel and fall over asleep. I need some time to wind down, so they probably got to bed well after midnight. The next day, Saturday, They probably woke up around 9 or 10. I don't know about you, but I can't 8 hours of sleep the next night. Maybe 5 if I am lucky. Because i've learned that if i try to force myself to bed at 7 pm, I end up just starting at the smoke detector light on the ceiling and tossing and turning until about 11 or 12, my normal bedtime. These guys probably had to get up in the 4's for a 5 or 5:15 show time. Dumbass things happen when you are groggy. Maybe scheduling flights in the wee hours of the morning isn't a great idea? Of course the companies wouldn't fix that, only the feds could regulate it and I have little faith in that happening.

 

[Vandal]

What a bunch of goons...if I hear "with my XXX number of hours," again I'm going to puke.

All I was saying was if the initial reports hold up, and they took off on the wrong runway, the families definetly have a case, whether it's against comair, the airport authority, the FAA, whatever. The personal attacks on this website are ridiculous.

 

[ROSWELL41]

I agree, the families do have a case. The legal system is just one check in a series of checks and balances in our society. Comair's insurance company will pay out big time on this one.

 

[blueridge71]

From what I've heard, it sounds like the crew was either on a standup or a reduced rest overnight. Fatigue could definitely have been a factor. Maybe a positive outcome will be the rewriting of outdated crew rest rules. How many passengers would want to fly with a crew that had only 3-4 hours of sleep?

 

[Redan]

What's the link to his I Love Me page? Gotta get something to laugh at out of this forum today.

Wish I could help, but you'll have to ask Vandal. It seems Vandal has removed the URL from his profile which led to his I love me page. Too bad, it was quite entertaining with lots of hot pics of Vandal himself in that sexy flight suit.

To Vandal, sorry you're tired of hearing people smack down on you and refer to the low time you possess. However you may as well get used to it as long as you continue to post armchair quarterback type comments which lean toward judgemental. Those type comments are not uncommon from low experience pilots...usually the cockier ones. Many on this board have tried to help you with this but you still don't seem to get it. Perhaps there is a lesson there for you if you'll just allow yourself to accept it. Might want to bear in mind that you don't even have enough time to fly checks in a Cherokee part 135.

 

[mckpickle]

If you are so "humble", why do you keep bringing up your 9000 hours of experience??

And BTW, 9000 hours flying for a commuter airline is hardly experience worth bragging about, Mr. Humility.

I bring it up to highlight the fact that the more time I get the more I realize that I don't know it all. If you are a "mainline" type, tell me how much experience do you get doing 4 landings a month? Trust me pal, myself, and any other regional guy with the same time as myself, pay their dues. We earn it doing 12-20 legs a week. Not sitting bakc and watching hte northern lights. But I suspect that your 10000 hours is mostly made of Flight Sim 04. When you get to the level we have you know that you are not infallable, invinceable, or know everything. I'll take a guy who knows he's not perfect over one like yourself that thinks he is any day.

 

[Vandal]

www.uptjournal.com

Journal about airforce pilot training/officer school...

And Redan PM me if you want to play the "experience" game, we can talk about crossing the pond, NVG's into baghdad, AAA. Hours aren't the be-all and end all dude.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Yes but in my experience mainline pilots have a more professional attitude than do regional pilots regardless of experience.

 

[wmuflyguy]

From what I've heard, it sounds like the crew was either on a standup or a reduced rest overnight. Fatigue could definitely have been a factor. Maybe a positive outcome will be the rewriting of outdated crew rest rules. How many passengers would want to fly with a crew that had only 3-4 hours of sleep?

They were not on a CD/Standup/Highspeed.

We all know they went of the runway, the important part is why did they end up on the wrong runway.

The other question is who gets sued? Delta or Comair. Delta technically holds all Comair's assests and is only an organization within a bigger organization. Comair might be the one named in the suit but Delta or their insurance would pay pay

 

[VABB]

I bring it up to highlight the fact that the more time I get the more I realize that I don't know it all. If you are a "mainline" type, tell me how much experience do you get doing 4 landings a month? Trust me pal, myself, and any other regional guy with the same time as myself, pay their dues. We earn it doing 12-20 legs a week. Not sitting bakc and watching hte northern lights. But I suspect that your 10000 hours is mostly made of Flight Sim 04. When you get to the level we have you know that you are not infallable, invinceable, or know everything. I'll take a guy who knows he's not perfect over one like yourself that thinks he is any day.

You are too quick to pat yourself on the back sporto. My advice to you is to find a safety pin and deflate the air out of your ego.

So tell me, what is it like sitting back watching the northern lights? Have you been there done that? Tell me what it is like to fly a heavy 10-12 hours across the ocean and then land it, only to do it again 24 hours later. Have you done that too? Didn't think so.

12-20 legs a week? Ooooh, I'm impressed. Those 12-20 legs a week are into the same familiar airports, and most if not all are in the domestic system.

Have you taken off at max weight out of Hong Kong lately? Have you ever had to deviate around weather in the Pacific while talking to the Asian controllers on the HF? Do you even know what an HF is? And speaking of Northern Lights, have you ever seen them while crossing the North Atlantic at night AND having to make position reports?? I didn't think so either.

So before you accuse people of logging all of their time only on Microsoft flight sim, take a minute to realize that most people out there have experience that dwarfs your measly little 9000 hours. You might want to think about that as you $pew all over yourself everytime you see a heavy taxi past you.

And by the way, I never claimed to be infalliable or otherwise not prone to mistakes. I simply pointed out that these guys made a mistake that is not very common at all. How often do people take off on the wrong runway each week??

And before you try and defend what happened the other day as a mistake that "we all could make", why don't you tell that to the grieving families who lost loved ones on Sunday morning. I'm sure if you remind them of "12-20" legs a day, that should provide some comfort.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I wish I was kidding but CNN just used Microsoft Flight Sim 2004 to recreate
"what the pilot saw". It's on www.cnn.com Horrible.

 

[bubbers44]

John Pennekamp. Is your first name Doug? You sound like a friend in Key Largo that thinks like you. That is a complement. Yes it is 5 oclock somewhere. Usually at Gilberts. Yes, let them get some facts before speculating on why it happened.

 

[ReportCanoa]

VABB, shut up. Again, moderators please ban this fraud.

Asian HF? Hong Kong heavy weight. Oh my gawd you are a tool. Regional airlines have pilots being hired directly into the right seat of a 767 doing the same b/s you describe.

 

[VABB]

VABB you are a clown. Again, moderators please ban this fraud.

Asian HF? Hong Kong heavy weight. Oh my gawd you are a tool.

Would you like a tissue for your tears?

Tool? No, that title belongs to Captain 9000 hours for thumping his chest. BTW, you are a close second for the title.

 

[ReportCanoa]

He's not chest thumping. Merely pointing out that you are a fraud. Go away.