Here come the lawyers

[Turkey Shoot]

No sir, you are a jacka$$. Mistakes can happen to anyone one of us, but not this one.

Have you spent anytime teaching? Have you done any research or study on human behavior? You'll be shocked to discover that if one person makes a type of mistake, others will surely make them as well.

To sit there and deny that it could never happen you, will one day bite you in the a$$. Most of us who are not the pilot you are, will readily admit they've made mistakes they never would have dreamed they would.... You Sir, are no different.

 

[John Pennekamp]

VABB, shame on you for smearing a man who can't defend himself. I'm glad SuperPilot VABB never makes a mistake. I only hope the friends and family of the pilots aren't reading this crap.

 

[VABB]

Vabb - You are scary. I once flew with a Captain who was so intent on briefing that we about ran off the pavement twice, during a flippin 4 leg day line!

You brief your plate, but things look different when you are on the same level with your surroundings. Do we know all the signage was in place up there? Do we know if all the markings were painted following the construction?

I do a little check of the Standby Compass, the Runway Markings and Heading Indicator just before pushing up the power. I would like to think that would save me from making this mistake, but I know for dang sure that if I'm not careful, this can happen.

Was he briefing while he taxied?

I'm not advocating a speech regarding the taxi brief , just a thorough briefing prior to blocking out. For example, I always make a note of any active runways between the gate and my intended runway for departure, as well as additional (such as construction, closures, etc) that we should be vigilant for. All this does for myself and my crew is to merely give us a heads up that there is a lot of things going on out there and will hopefully prompt us to second-guess something in the event things don't look right.

 

[Dumbledore]

This could have been anyone of us.

Speak for yourself. It wouldn't have happened to me. I've been in and out of LEX too and it woudn't have happened to me. The runway was NOTAMed CLOSED. That should have gotten someone's attention. It didn't.

The CVR will be key here. The pilots flying that plane were not paying attention to the most basic things they should have been paying attention to. It will be enlightening to us all to find out why.

 

[VABB]

Have you spent anytime teaching? Have you done any research or study on human behavior? You'll be shocked to discover that if one person makes a type of mistake, others will surely make them as well.

To sit there and deny that it could never happen you, will one day bite you in the a$$. Most of us who are not the pilot you are, will readily admit they've made mistakes they never would have dreamed they would.... You Sir, are no different.

Teaching? Yes. Studying human behavior? Yes.

You are missing the whole point of my post: I never said I (or anyone else) are not prone to making mistakes. You are assuming that all mistakes are equal. They are not. This wasn't a "common" error, but rather one that is hard to make.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Well good for you. Maybe we'll appoint VABB to the NTSB, or better yet FAA. He sounds like the perfect candidate to sport the polyester.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Speak for yourself. It wouldn't have happened to me.

Translation- you're next, kiddo.

 

[VABB]

Well good for you. Maybe we'll appoint VABB to the NTSB, or better yet FAA. He sounds like the perfect candidate to sport the polyester.

Just calling a spade a spade.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Speak for yourself. It wouldn't have happened to me. I've been in and out of LEX too and it woudn't have happened to me. The runway was NOTAMed CLOSED. That should have gotten someone's attention. It didn't.

The CVR will be key here. The pilots flying that plane were not paying attention to the most basic things they should have been paying attention to. It will be enlightening to us all to find out why.

Another Sunday flyer who thinks he can do no wrong. Good thing you're only flying one day a week, and I hope they NOTAM that.

 

[atrdriver]

If a crew, from any carrier, is that mentally distracted, they have no business being at work until they can concentrate on their job.

No sir, it is obviously YOU that are the jacka$$. Just about every crew at ASA, CMR, Mesaba, and countless other regionals are distracted to some extent by the actions of their management that are having a daily effect on their lives. I would say the same applies to mainline pilots who don't know from day to day whether their job will be around in a week. If every pilot were to ground themselves because of distractions there would be no planes flying. Yes, it is our job to see past those distractions, but they often have an insideous way of getting to us when we least expect it.

I flew with a Captain years ago on the ATR who did the most extensive (and mind numbingly boring) briefings known to man. And I had to stop him from lining up on 26 in LEX one day. Also had to point out two other times that he was making a wrong turn, and hit the brakes for him before he crossed a hold short line. Briefings don't mean cr@p, situational awareness does. If you have never made a wrong turn when taxing then you have been extremely lucky, or you don't have access to a tiller.

 

[BoilerUP]

Just calling a spade a spade.

I sleep better at night knowing that YIP-based freight pilots are immune to making fatal mistakes.

 

[SFR]

True, mistakes happen to everyone everyday. But this was a huge mistake that really would be east to catch. I don't understand what they were thinking.

For all of you (mistakes happen to everyone...could have happened to me...) people out there, you are correct. But, lets not forget that this mistake should not be written off as an oh well, could have happened to me type.

I don't think this mistake could have happened to everyone. Maybe a small percentage. Most would have caught this, or at least one of the crewmembers.

Yeah, it is nice to place the blame on tower, RFP, etc... but face it they screwed up and that is final, just like KLM in Tenerife years ago.

The last thing we all need on our checklist now is an item on the before takeoff to verify runway!!!! I can see that going to the regionals. Good luck and fly safe.

 

[Dumbledore]

How many people here have taken off without the transponder on? Or what about the wrong transponder code in the box? How many people have set the wrong initial altitude? Or bugged the wrong heading for the runway/departure?

These mistakes are inconsequential. Forgetting the transponder doesn't turn into an accident by itself and neither does setting the wrong altitude in the alerter. Lining up on a runway that isn't long enought to take off from in the dark, when it's unlit, AND it's NOTAMed closed is the result of just not doing the job as required. That's all. It's really very simple.

 

[VABB]

No sir, it is obviously YOU that are the jacka$$. Just about every crew at ASA, CMR, Mesaba, and countless other regionals are distracted to some extent by the actions of their management that are having a daily effect on their lives. I would say the same applies to mainline pilots who don't know from day to day whether their job will be around in a week. If every pilot were to ground themselves because of distractions there would be no planes flying. Yes, it is our job to see past those distractions, but they often have an insideous way of getting to us when we least expect it.

I flew with a Captain years ago on the ATR who did the most extensive (and mind numbingly boring) briefings known to man. And I had to stop him from lining up on 26 in LEX one day. Also had to point out two other times that he was making a wrong turn, and hit the brakes for him before he crossed a hold short line. Briefings don't mean cr@p, situational awareness does. If you have never made a wrong turn when taxing then you have been extremely lucky, or you don't have access to a tiller.

Briefings will LEAD to greater situational awareness. It was your situational awareness that led you to catch and prevent some mistakes.

There was obviously a breakdown in SA yesterday, because if there were not we wouldn't be having this discussion. The big question is WHY?

 

[BoilerUP]

These mistakes are inconsequential. Forgetting the transponder doesn't turn into an accident by itself and neither does setting the wrong altitude in the alerter. Lining up on a runway that isn't long enought to take off from in the dark, when it's unlit, AND it's NOTAMed closed is the result of just not doing the job as required. That's all. It's really very simple.

Were you in LEX yesterday morning? How do you know the lights were off? Reports are the 26 runway lights were in fact operational yesterday morning, and interviewed officials were hesitant to say whether or not the runway lights were actually on.

Did the runway have a big yellow X on it? I didn't see one from the aerial pictures, did you? Sure would have been easy to tell a runway was closed if it had a yellow X on it...like its supposed to when notam'd closed.

I'm probably one of the few on this board that have landed on both 22 and 26 in Lexington, and I guarantee I've got hundreds more operations there than you do. Some of you people can't look beyond the fact the wrong runway was used...sure it was (and that is the responsibility of the crew), but what led the crew to that point?

 

[shamrock]

I know that every pilot is prone to making mistakes, but lining up on the wrong runway-especially when the two of them are 40 degrees apart in heading?? And at night when only one of them is lit.

As much as I'd like to defend the crew, it looks like they really screwed the pooch on this one. How many of you would depart from a runway in the dark with NO runway lights on it?

This is not one of those "oh, I can see how that could happen" errors. Face it, you have to be extremely distracted or just have your head stuck up your a$$ to make this kind of mistake. How about cross-checking your heading indicator and moving map display and confirming your position. i.e., situational awareness.

Come on, you know you're not the least bit interested in defending the crew, and if you can't see how this accident could happen, and happen to you, then I have have to agree with the others here, you really are are showing yourself to be a jackass.

 

[Dumbledore]

Another Sunday flyer who thinks he can do no wrong. Good thing you're only flying one day a week, and I hope they NOTAM that.

But it's Monday and yet I have a trip starting today. Is that legal?

Know what you STUPID PUNK? I've forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know. I repeat - this is NOT a mistake I would have made - and I make plenty. But you know what else? I take the amount of runway I have very seriously - it's all in that pesky little thing they want you to do called takeoff planning and performance. Funny stuff that performance - it only works when you use the CORRECT runway.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Were these fellows on a red-eye? Maybe this will shed some light on how dangerous these flights can be. Anyone who has done a chain of red-eyes knows that your SA suffers when your fighting to stay awake. I'm sure we will find out soon enough. It's sad no matter how you look at it.

-Spartacus

 

[xjlifer]

As a captain for 8 years and somewhere around 9000 hours I can confidently say, KNOWING LEX, and the fact the paving was just done, that you sir are a jackas$. This could have been anyone of us. The crew may have provided the final link in the chain however that chain was started long beofre they took 26 for depature.

Bingo....all you have to do is fly into LEX on a regular basis..I have and the above post is spot on.

 

[shamrock]

How many people here have taken off without the transponder on? Or what about the wrong transponder code in the box? How many people have set the wrong initial altitude? Or bugged the wrong heading for the runway/departure?

Remind me who you fly for so I can avoid flying with you. I've NEVER made any of the mistakes you mention here, and if those are the kind of things you miss then you have no business in the cockpit, period.

Oh crap, did I just say that out loud? Sorry, I must have been channeling VABB for a second.

 

[TDK90]

But it's Monday and yet I have a trip starting today. Is that legal?

Know what you STUPID PUNK? I've forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know. I repeat - this is NOT a mistake I would have made - and I make plenty. But you know what else? I take the amount of runway I have very seriously - it's all in that pesky little thing they want you to do called takeoff planning and performance. Funny stuff that performance - it only works when you use the CORRECT runway.

Yeah..a trip to the FBO to hang out with your buddies, you can say what you like on FI but from those of us who fly this airplane or any regional under 121, you opinion is ignorant and unwelcome. I'm sure there's a GA wannabee board you can post on somewhere.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

The runway was not NOTAM'd closed. I don't know where that came from. It was technically a day VFR only runway who had runway lights installed but they were out of service until further notice according to the AFD and sites like airnav.com. 121 carriers wouldnt know that obviously but they wouldnt use runway 22 anyway so it doesnt matter.

And they were NOT ON A CDO. There are no Comair CDO's in or out of Atlanta since they dont have a crew base there. I've heard that they actually got in Friday night and had Saturday entirely off at the hotel.

 

[Dumbledore]

I'm probably one of the few on this board that have landed on both 22 and 26 in Lexington, and I guarantee I've got hundreds more operations there than you do.[/quote]
Okay, my turn. You know this how?"

Some of you people can't look beyond the fact the wrong runway was used...

That's because that's what caused the accident. It really doesn't matter, from a practical standpoint, why that happened. What matters is they failed to notice or comprehend the significance of the fact that at least FOUR different heading indications were telling them that their heading was about 40° off of what it should have been. They then attempted to become airborn from a surface that was not compatible with a successful outcome of the operation.

There's your accident in a nutshell. It's not a mistake I would have made.

 

[xjlifer]

There's your accident in a nutshell. It's not a mistake I would have made.

We can agree a mistake was made and people are dead. To come on FI and pound your chest saying YOU would have not made THAT mistake is childish at best.

 

[Dumbledore]

Yeah..a trip to the FBO to hang out with your buddies, you can say what you like on FI but from those of us who fly this airplane or any regional under 121, you opinion is ignorant and unwelcome. I'm sure there's a GA wannabee board you can post on somewhere.

Hmm, 1650 hours. Wow. You've got a big mouth for such a low time pudknocker. Allow me to offer you a piece of advice. Use your ears and your mouth in proportion to which they are installed. You'll get along a lot better in this business in the long run. You might even make it off of probation.

 

[shamrock]

These mistakes are inconsequential. Forgetting the transponder doesn't turn into an accident by itself and neither does setting the wrong altitude in the alerter.

Tell that to two of my (ex) coworkers who mistakenly set the wrong initial altitude in the alerter and hit the side of a mountain on departure. Wouldn't call that one "inconsequential".

 

[VABB]

Come on, you know you're not the least bit interested in defending the crew, and if you can't see how this accident could happen, and happen to you, then I have have to agree with the others here, you really are are showing yourself to be a jackass.

You seem to think that taking off on the wrong runway is a fairly common eveint. Note, I didn't say lining-up and then catching it. If it could happen to any of us, than why doesen't it happen more frequently?? Have you asked yourself that question??

It is HABIT for me to verify my aircraft's heading with runway alignment and make sure I'm where I'm supposed to be BEFORE I advance the throttles.

Why is it habit? Because the one day that I don't check it will be the day that I screw it up.

The crew OBVIOUSLY did not reference their position and they screwed up. People can point at signs, ATC, etc., but in the end it is the captain's decision to advance the throttles. Like I said before, the flight crew is the last line of defense against an accident.

 

[VABB]

Yeah..a trip to the FBO to hang out with your buddies, you can say what you like on FI but from those of us who fly this airplane or any regional under 121, you opinion is ignorant and unwelcome. I'm sure there's a GA wannabee board you can post on somewhere.

It wasn't a GA wannabee who ended up in the trees yesterday.

 

[Dumbledore]

This place is just incredible. It's a slow and painful death - cancer is. This place is riddled with it.

Gosh, Mark be so proud!

 

[BoilerUP]

Okay, my turn. You know this how?"

I'm gonna say probability. Unless you've averaged 3+ TOLs per day at LEX over a two year span, I've got you beat by a wide margin. If you've got more than that, then more power to you and I'll be the first to admit I'm talking out my rear. I'm from LEX, I know the airport very well, I know the crash site, and I probably know some of the victims. Needless to say, news of this hit me hard yesterday.

That's because that's what caused the accident. It really doesn't matter, from a practical standpoint, why that happened. What matters is they failed to notice or comprehend the significance of the fact that at least FOUR different heading indications were telling them that their heading was about 40° off of what it should have been. They then attempted to become airborn from a surface that was not compatible with a successful outcome of the operation.

Yes, and nobody is debating that fact. What I am concerned about are the other factors that contributed to this accident (runway lights being on when they weren't supposed to be, fatigue, non-sterile cockpit, taxi diagrams not being accurate with airport layout, company procedures, etc) and how they built the accident chain leading to this tragic event.

There's your accident in a nutshell. It's not a mistake I would have made.

Well then good for you! Do you fly professionally? If so, for whom? I would love to praise your management for hiring a superior aviator into their company.