Here come the lawyers

[TheGuat]

Source: Kreindler & Kreindler LLPPilot Error and Crew Resource Management to Be Likely Focus of Investigation in Lexington, KY Comair Crash; Poor Pilot Decision Making was Implicated in A 1997 Comair Crash, Expert Pilots/Attorneys Say
Sunday August 27, 5:55 pm ET


NEW YORK, Aug. 27 /PRNewswire/ -- The investigation of the crash shortly after takeoff of a Comair airplane in Lexington, KY, on Sunday morning will likely focus on pilot error and may find, as a contributing factor, a lack of communication between the flight crew. Survivability of the aircraft model is another factor likely to be considered.

"Aviation is a very unforgiving environment. A single error in judgment, such as selecting the wrong runway, can have disastrous consequences. It is imperative that flight crews are trained and practiced in crew resource management which is a way for the flight crew to cross-check each other and challenge each other's decisions, if necessary," said Daniel O. Rose an aviation lawyer, and former commercial and military pilot, at Kreindler & Kreindler LLP in New York, the nation's leading aviation law firm. "Crew resource management is at the heart of air safety and is the last check in the flight deck to make sure the flight is being conducted safely."
While the investigation is ongoing, early reports suggest the Canadair Regional Jet, operated as Comair Flight 5191, may have used the shorter of two runways at Lexington's Blue Grass Airport when it took off at 6:10 am. If the pilot taxied the plane to the wrong runway, the mistake should have been identified and corrected by the second (non-flying) crewmember as part of proper crew resource management.
Air traffic controllers may also bear some responsibility for the chain of events that lead to the crash if they failed to identify the flight crews' mistake in taxing to the wrong runway.
Kreindler & Kreindler LLP, www.kreindler.com, was involved in a prior case against Comair arising out of the crash of a Comair Embraer 120 aircraft in 1997, killing 29 people. While aircraft icing was the ultimate cause of that crash, the decisions of the flight crew were also cited by investigators.
In examining Sunday's crash in Kentucky, the NTSB will also focus on survivability issues, such as whether the passengers aboard the regional jet survived the crash but died in the subsequent fire. In the United States over the past two decades there have been at least four catastrophic post-crash fires that killed the occupants of the airplane even though they lived through the initial disaster.
"Aircraft manufacturers must design planes so that passengers who survive a crash can quickly and safely evacuate the aircraft. The design of this particular airplane will surely be examined in this light," said Robert J. Spragg, a partner at Kreindler & Kreindler and a former military pilot who was extensively involved in the 1997 case against Comair.

The law firm is available to comment on: * The history of commuter aircraft accidents * The development of crew resource management over the past decade * Victims' and victims' family rights in air crashes * All other legal issues and guidelines related to air crashes * Airplane technical and operational matters * Crash investigation and accident reconstruction Expert pilots/attorneys at Kreindler & Kreindler include:Robert J. Spragg: Kreindler law partner specializing in aviation litigation who has been involved in numerous airline, commuter, military and general aviation crash cases, including the crash of Comair flight 3272 near Monroe, Michigan. Mr. Spragg previously served in the United States Marine Corps as a Naval Aviator from 1981 to 1988, where he flew the CH-46 helicopter.
Daniel O. Rose: Kreindler law partner specializing in litigating airline, general aviation and military crash cases, as well as other complex products liability and negligence cases. Mr. Rose served in the United States Navy as a carrier-based attack pilot including service in Operation Desert Shield.
Founded in 1950, Kreindler & Kreindler, www.kreindler.com, is nationally recognized as the first and most prominent aviation law firm in the nation. The firm has been the leading plaintiff legal counsel on hundreds of aviation cases, including major ones such as the September 11 terrorist attacks, Pan Am Lockerbie Flight 103, Korean Airlines Flight 007, American Airlines Flight 587, and many cases of small private and commercial crashes. Its ranks include airplane and helicopter pilots, engineers and other technical experts.



Source: Kreindler & Kreindler LLP

 

[Vandal]

Hate to say it but after the preliminary NTSB reports, the families definitely have a case...

 

[Sig]

Has anyone ever successfully sued a lion after sticking their head in said lion's mouth and was bitten? It will only be a matter of time.

Until air travel has quintuple unrelated backup redundencies for any event, with a staggering number of contigency plans in the FOM that come from the first psychic with 1.00 on the batting average developing that program, AIR TRAVEL IS INHERENTLY RISKY. But hey, inasmuch that "creative thinking" is supressed in airline training, being procedurally correct right into the ground is laudable when the burden of "pilot error" can be so conveniently thrown around- by screwing up or not. The crew made a mistake; they didn't wake up at oh-dark-thirty and decide to attempt do their jobs contrary to everything they were ever taught.

We all experience loss. It's a crummy day on all airline workers' calendar when this happens, but dammit- it isn't a question of how, but when... until Miss Cleo can issue NOTAMS with accuracy.

I'm simply saying the error (as far as we all know today) had every single planet, star, and chain of BS lined up to make it happen... and it could happen to any of us. Where's my money?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Hate to say it but after the preliminary NTSB reports, the families definitely have a case...

Excuse me while I vomit....


As money hungry and greedy as people get when a tragedy happens, I don't know if I would rather be the Capt. or FO.

 

[ackattacker]

Hate to say it but after the preliminary NTSB reports, the families definitely have a case...

Another beauty of a post.

I think I'm going to take a break from FI for a while.

 

[Soverytired]

Another beauty of a post.

I think I'm going to take a break from FI for a while.

No shizt.

If I hear one more radio station call up with "Well, I'm a (c-172) pilot, and I'd NEVER get on the wrong runway)", I'm gonna get my ass-kicking boots on and go kick some teeth in.

 

[dash8driver]

No shizt.

If I hear one more radio station call up with "Well, I'm a (c-172) pilot, and I'd NEVER get on the wrong runway)", I'm gonna get my ass-kicking boots on and go kick some teeth in.

dont wear em out.. you're gonna need em in the upcoming contract negotiations....




.

 

[Redan]

We Hear From the Sainted Vandal Again

Hate to say it but after the preliminary NTSB reports, the families definitely have a case...

Another insightful quote from our vaunted Mr. Vandal sitting way up on his lofty perch...with his one thousand hours. Son, you need to get over yourself and STFU. You're low time, you know nothing of 121 and you are rather insensitive on top of it. But my compliments on your I love me webpage.

 

[goodpilotithink]

Unless they already have a client from this crash, releasing this is classic ambulance chasing.
Sorry basterdss

 

[ditch]

Shakespeare had it right.

 

[atrdriver]

What's the difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead lawyer in the road? The skid mards in front of the snake.

 

[Flyer1015]

You know what?

I say somebody needs to push a "No sue" clause in buying an airline ticket.

Something that bascially says that IF anything goes wrong, a lawsuit cannot be brought up against the pilots and/or the airline.

That should be a clause, a condition you agree to when you buy an airline ticket.

Don't like it? Tough. Take a train from JFK to LAX...

 

[AMANSWORLD]

You know what?

I say somebody needs to push a "No sue" clause in buying an airline ticket.

Something that bascially says that IF anything goes wrong, a lawsuit cannot be brought up against the pilots and/or the airline.

That should be a clause, a condition you agree to when you buy an airline ticket.

Don't like it? Tough. Take a train from JFK to LAX...

Well we as a country have pushed a sue rich society and that is why we have asset management groups and risk management groups and basic driven the prices up on everything we buy in the insurance consumer world. If this case should be cause by pilot error (not saying it is) the question really to ask is how does the FAA plan on taking action on behalf of the COMAIR certificate and training department because they will look at it. Another VERY important question is can COMAIR afford this without closing the doors? Just a few thoughts may not be in the realm or reality for some?

 

[sleepy]

If (and I mean if) this crew, the controlers, the airline, etc.... were negligent, and this negligence lead to this accident, the victims have every right to sue for damages. I have to ask, if one of your family members was on that flight, are you actually saying that you would not hire a lawyer and sue Comair? I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that.

 

[Lear70]

Does LEX even have the tower operational that early in the morning?

If memory serves, it's UNICOM between 11 and 6 or some similar time, I haven't been in there in a while and don't have my plates out to look.

My thoughts keep going to the airTran F/O who was in the back... if that was his home airport, just imagine if he'd been sitting on the flight deck J/S instead of in the back. We probably would never have heard about it and this tragedy never would have happened. Instead he had to sit helpless through the whole sequence. Just unbelievable...

I agree incidentally, about the law firm ambulance-chasing. A couple family members read that, are desparate for answers, who do they call? Am I saying I wouldn't sue? Probably would - if I was the newly-widowed mother of an infant and found out for CERTAIN it was a blatant error (not saying it IS, just talking hypothetically), then yes, I would probably take every measure to make sure I provided for my child's future.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The sharks smell blood in the water...

 

[VABB]

No shizt.

If I hear one more radio station call up with "Well, I'm a (c-172) pilot, and I'd NEVER get on the wrong runway)", I'm gonna get my ass-kicking boots on and go kick some teeth in.

You can put your boots back in the closet, the NTSB confirmed during their press conference yesterday that the aircraft was on a 260 degree heading when they attempted to take off.

I know that every pilot is prone to making mistakes, but lining up on the wrong runway-especially when the two of them are 40 degrees apart in heading?? And at night when only one of them is lit.

As much as I'd like to defend the crew, it looks like they really screwed the pooch on this one. How many of you would depart from a runway in the dark with NO runway lights on it?

This is not one of those "oh, I can see how that could happen" errors. Face it, you have to be extremely distracted or just have your head stuck up your a$$ to make this kind of mistake. How about cross-checking your heading indicator and moving map display and confirming your position. i.e., situational awareness.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lets look at it from the families' perspective. If the facts are as clear cut as many are saying, there is no factual question regarding causation.

The Claims Managers for the insurers will be eager to settle these cases on the high range of the values established in prior cases (which these insurers have more experience than any law firm).

The attorneys know this appears to be an easy case. They will rush to the scene because for the effort necessary to write two or three letters, the lawyer will take home a 25% to 40%, or higher contingency fee. Some attorneys will file suit for the only purpose of driving the contingency fee higher since many agreements are written so that a case settled out of Court is 25%, but a file in suit takes 50% or more of the settlement. In these cases the unscrupulous attorney not only takes a big portion of the compensation the surviving family needs to continue their life, but that money is delayed while the family tries to cover funeral and probate expenses out of their meager savings.

40% of a six million dollar cash settlement for writing three letters and attending a couple of client meetings is easy, very easy, money.

The Insurers for the airline will pay about the same either way. Unfortunately it is the victims that get screwed out of their compensation in these accidents. If there was one bit of advise I could give the family members, it would be to hire your attorney by the hour - not on a contingency fee.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The Insurers for the airline will pay about the same either way. Unfortunately it is the victims that get screwed out of their compensation in these accidents. If there was one bit of advise I could give the family members, it would be to hire your attorney by the hour - not on a contingency fee.

But fins, as you said, it's such easy money, that no lawyer would do it by the hour. They'll be hard pressed to find a tort lawyer who wants to "do the right thing" for his clients. They're in it for the $$$.

 

[VABB]

Lets look at it from the families' perspective. If the facts are as clear cut as many are saying, there is no factual question regarding causation.

The Claims Managers for the insurers will be eager to settle these cases on the high range of the values established in prior cases (which these insurers have more experience than any law firm).

The attorneys know this appears to be an easy case. They will rush to the scene because for the effort necessary to write two or three letters, the lawyer will take home a 25% to 40%, or higher contingency fee. Some attorneys will file suit for the only purpose of driving the contingency fee higher since many agreements are written so that a case settled out of Court is 25%, but a file in suit takes 50% ore more of the settlement. In these cases the unscrupulous attorney not only takes a big portion of the compensation the surviving family needs to continue their life, but that money is delayed while the family tries to cover funeral and probate expenses out of their meager savings.

40% of a six million dollar cash settlement for writing three letters and attending a couple of client meetings is easy, very easy, money.

The Insurers for the airline will pay about the same either way. Unfortunately it is the victims that get screwed out of their compensation in these accidents. If there was one bit of advise I could give the family members, it would be to hire your attorney by the hour - not on a contingency fee.

Can you successfully sue and airline that is in bankruptcy?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Can you successfully sue and airline that is in bankruptcy?

You're suing the airline, but it's the insurance companies that pay, not the airline.

 

[mckpickle]

Hate to say it but after the preliminary NTSB reports, the families definitely have a case...

ANother military idiot. Maybe if you guys flew half as much as you talked about flying you'd have a clue.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Another insightful quote from our vaunted Mr. Vandal sitting way up on his lofty perch...with his one thousand hours. Son, you need to get over yourself and STFU. You're low time, you know nothing of 121 and you are rather insensitive on top of it. But my compliments on your I love me webpage.

What would having low time have to do with understanding the law? I'm certain no amount of money could even come close to making up for the pain these families are feeling - but from a strictly legal standpoint, if the crew did in fact make a mistake (even a mistake anyone could reasonably make) the airline would be culpable. It's easy to see people as simply being money hungry, but I'm sure several of the people on the flight were the principal breadwinners for their respective families.

I think if you read Nine Minutes, Twenty Seconds (book about the ASA crash) you get a completely different perspective on the legal issues following a crash. It's easy for us to sit back and laugh at a million dollar settlement and claim that the family is "greedy". I'm sure it's completely different if you're the one whose lost a loved one. No one's certain the the crew is responsible, but if they are, the families do in fact, from a strictly legal sense, have a case. You don't need 10k hours of flight time to know that.

 

[mckpickle]

You can put your boots back in the closet, the NTSB confirmed during their press conference yesterday that the aircraft was on a 260 degree heading when they attempted to take off.

I know that every pilot is prone to making mistakes, but lining up on the wrong runway-especially when the two of them are 40 degrees apart in heading?? And at night when only one of them is lit.

As much as I'd like to defend the crew, it looks like they really screwed the pooch on this one. How many of you would depart from a runway in the dark with NO runway lights on it?

This is not one of those "oh, I can see how that could happen" errors. Face it, you have to be extremely distracted or just have your head stuck up your a$$ to make this kind of mistake. How about cross-checking your heading indicator and moving map display and confirming your position. i.e., situational awareness.

As a captain for 8 years and somewhere around 9000 hours I can confidently say, KNOWING LEX, and the fact the paving was just done, that you sir are a jackas$. This could have been anyone of us. The crew may have provided the final link in the chain however that chain was started long beofre they took 26 for depature.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Can you successfully sue and airline that is in bankruptcy?

Yes. The bankruptcy stay is lifted to the extent of available insurance.

 

[~~~^~~~]

As a captain for 8 years and somewhere around 9000 hours I can confidently say, KNOWING LEX, and the fact the paving was just done, that you sir are a jackas$. This could have been anyone of us. The crew may have provided the final link in the chain however that chain was started long beofre they took 26 for depature.

Amen. I think everyone is taking things a little slower and being more situationally aware today.

What I wonder is the effect of Delta's RFP on this. Almost all my friends at Comair are working on executing their exit strategy, whether it be another flying job, or work outside of aviation. Stress can lead to loss of sleep and certainly all of the unpleasantness at Comair was a distraction. I don't know that airlines may have pushed to the point at which the weakest link is beginning to fail.

This tragic, unfortunate and possibly avoidable loss has lessons in it for all of us.

 

[VABB]

As a captain for 8 years and somewhere around 9000 hours I can confidently say, KNOWING LEX, and the fact the paving was just done, that you sir are a jackas$. This could have been anyone of us. The crew may have provided the final link in the chain however that chain was started long beofre they took 26 for depature.

No sir, you are a jacka$$. Mistakes can happen to anyone one of us, but not this one.

In your 8 years of captain and 9000 hours, have you ever heard of a taxi briefing?? It is done preferably before the aircraft begins to taxi.

If it were done properly, one would have briefed the route of taxi to INCLUDE the fact that there is one runway between their present position and their intended runway. Plus, the fact that construction and paving was just completed, the briefing should include the necessity to be even more vigilant than normal.

I know it's speculation and I'm not assuming that they omitted a taxi briefing, but the fact they screwed up and entered the wrong runway leads me to believe that there wasn't much conversation about it.

Finally, checking your heading indicator. Basic stuff, and I don't know anyone who doesen't check their aircraft heading with runway heading prior to advancing the power.

You're right, the crew was the final link in the chain. They were also the last line of defense against an error. The fact is, they dropped the ball and destroyed the lives of 49 families.

 

[VABB]

What I wonder is the effect of Delta's RFP on this. Almost all my friends at Comair are working on executing their exit strategy, whether it be another flying job, or work outside of aviation. Stress can lead to loss of sleep and certainly all of the unpleasantness at Comair was a distraction. I don't know that airlines may have pushed to the point at which the weakest link is beginning to fail.

If a crew, from any carrier, is that mentally distracted, they have no business being at work until they can concentrate on their job.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Vabb - You are scary. I once flew with a Captain who was so intent on briefing that we about ran off the pavement twice, during a flippin 4 leg day line!

If crewmembers should pull themselves off line whenever they are distracted then Crew Scheduling should not be allowed to call pilots, ever. I don't know a single pilot who after being extended into their weekend off with their family is not trying to figure out how they are going to re-arrange their schedule to cover the kids, cookouts, church events, whatever...

You brief your plate, but things look different when you are on the same level with your surroundings. Do we know all the signage was in place up there? Do we know if all the markings were painted following the construction?

I do a little check of the Standby Compass, the Runway Markings and Heading Indicator just before pushing up the power. I would like to think that would save me from making this mistake, but I know for dang sure that if I'm not careful, this can happen.

You have to look at the human factors in accidents like this. I've not met the perfect pilot who calls in sick every time when distracted, fatigued, or sick. Most pilots go out and try to accomplish the mission. But then again, I've not met you, maybe you are perfect and if so, congratulations on achieving a goal none of us has been able to maintain.

 

[BoilerUP]

How many people here have taken off without the transponder on? Or what about the wrong transponder code in the box? How many people have set the wrong initial altitude? Or bugged the wrong heading for the runway/departure?

Yes, it appears there were serious mistakes made that led to the deaths of many innocent people...but its a mistake that anybody could make at any given time. We all are human, and none of us are infallible. To say "that couldn't happen to me" shows hubris beyond comprehension.