Hello all, thoughts and opinions needed

[skydiverdriver]

I would suggest you get a good job with your degree, and that will pay enough to get your ratings. Get a CFI then, and instruct on the side. Then, if the airline hiring picks up, you can go full time, live on your savings and persue your goal. If the aviation career doesn't work out, you will have experience and credentials to fall back on. Also, you could become a dispatcher and move into a pilot's slot at some airlines. Be sure to research this first, as I worked at one place that never hired dispatchers as pilots. Now I work at one that does.

I also think ATP Inc's program is a good one. You get the multi time right away, which is very difficult to get later on. So is a college degree, so no matter what, finish that first!! Good luck to you.

 

[Otto]

Here's my thoughts on the subject. First of all...no matter what road you decide to take, it will be long and it will involve sacrifice. If there is one thing I've learned in life, however, it's that the things you are truly proud of are the things you had to work the most for. A career in aviation is like the stock market...with risk comes rewards, but also greater failure. Now with that said, you have two roads...civillian or military. I look at like this...the military is the more conservative route but the civilian route may (I emphasize MAY) pay off more quickly. The time it takes to pay off has nothing to do with your skills as a pilot assuming you make wise decisions. It has everything to do with the state of the economy and if you can predict that, your skills would be put to better use outside of aviation.
Now with that said...you said your goal was to fly big planes. If that's the case, the Air Force could have you flying big planes (really big planes) in three years whereas with the civilian route, it will be a very long time. Some more advantages...you will be well paid and the places you fly to will be much more interesting than flying for a commuter and flight instructing. Would you rather be flying to Germany and Australia or back and forth to some hub? That's what I thought. The downside...it's a nine year commitment after wings, so in reality it's really more like eleven once you include flight training. Another downside...you have no control over where you live, you have to move around a lot (I'm overseas on Christmas day as I write this), and oh yeah, there's lot's of guys all over the planet who would love to stick a SAM up your butt. Personally the thought of being $30,000 in debt scares me a lot more than the chance of a SAM but that's just my opinion. Imagine what $30K would be 30 years from now if you invested it-Yikes!
I view the civillian route as the riskier option simply because it involves a lot of money (unless you have a rich grandfather or something) that you have to pay where there is no guaranteed payoff at the end. It's not like law school or medical school where you know it will pay off someday....your betting that it might pay off. For whatever reason, right or wrong, the majors seem to prefer military guys so there are a lot of guys who spent a lot of money who may never get to the majors. There simply are a lot more pilots out there than the majors have a need for. Don't believe the hype about a "pilot shortage"...when they say that, everyone thinks Delta and United are hurting but in reality it means Joe's Flight School is hurting for CFI's. Okay, before civilian guys get mad at me, I must emphasize that with risk comes reward and I can tell you that there are 27 year old pilots at American and Delta right now who took the civilian route and it paid off handsomely. They are the exception rather than the rule but I'm sure they'll be laughing at me some day when I'm their First Officer and they're in the Captains seat.
So what it comes down to is that the route you decide to take really depends on how much risk you are comfortable living with and whether you will be satisfied in your flying career with just flying people or if you want something in addition such as serving your country, etc. I'll admit I'm biased but I love serving in the military. I came in through the Reserves so I can answer any questions you have about that. My advice would be to get your private as fast as you can (first to make sure you really enjoy flying) and go from there. You said you're in Austin...it wouldn't hurt to call up a Reserve recruiter at Lackland in San Antonio and tell him you're interested in a pilots slot. He'll steer you to the flying squadron and then it's a lot like rushing a fraternity. They fly C-5's there so that would satisfy your 'big aircraft' appetite. Don't be fooled by the Guard and Reserve option...they fly as much or more than active duty...the trick is getting a slot which is especially tough these days due to the economic situation. Also, whether you are interested in the Reserve or active duty, don't believe the bunk the recruiters tell you about having to join without knowing you have a pilot's slot. I applied four years ago for a pilots slot (active duty) and got shot down (I had no flying time at that point) so I never committed to a thing. Another final word...don't be discouraged by the state of the industry right now. Look at it as an oppurtunity to catch up since nobody is getting hired in front of you. Sorry this got long winded but I have a lot of time on my hands down here!

 

[bobbysamd]

Great analysis, especially your comments about the pilot "shortage" and your analysis of the risk v. rewards for military v. civilian.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Otto,
I'm sure no younger pilot will be laughing at you for serving your country. We are all in your debt. I hope you and everyone you know comes back safely and has a long and happy career after the military.

SDD

 

[Wiggums]

You said you're in Austin...it wouldn't hurt to call up a Reserve recruiter at Lackland in San Antonio and tell him you're interested in a pilots slot. He'll steer you to the flying squadron and then it's a lot like rushing a fraternity.

Does anyone know of a site that lists all the Reserve units? Is the ANG any more or less competitive then the reserves? I am looking at over the long-term, 3-5 years in the future.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I just couldn't help but comment on the above advertisement for ATP......specifically the time table of "from private to all your instructor ratings in 3 or 4 months!" What kind of diploma factory are you guys running? 3 months from freshly minted private to MEII? I not sure how that works...and what kind of instructor comes out of that program? I really don't want to debate which 141 program is best (ATP lost their 141 status for forging student paper work) But I will quote my college economics professor "there is no such thing as a free lunch" You get what you pay for, and if you pay for a MEII in 3 months you will end up with just that, a very inexpierenced instructor who rushed through all his/her tickets. Ask yourself, as a student would you want that person as your instructor?

 

[kilomike]

Dear Runninhorn,

Bobbysamd wrote some very helpful information for you. Pursuing a pilot career is very difficult at best and not everyone can make it into the major airlines. There is the situation of years of low pay and many expenses such as hotel costs etc. when interviewing for jobs.

I have decided to leave the airline industry and fly for pleasure only, and perhaps in the future as a part of supporting my own business ventures. With your business degree, you could very well obtain the Private, instrument and multi and put that to good use supporting your own company. I know someone who owns a wire company, and years ago he flew an Aerostar to support his business. He is still very active in general aviation. Not once did I ever hear him complain about his great life flying for fun and for business, or lamenting that he did not get on with the airlines. He is one of the happiest people I know. I also can tell of an electrician/pilot friend who did interview with the major airlines years ago and was accepted by all the majors with whom he interviewed. He ended up declining to join the airlines after he weighed out the pros and cons. He ended up making millions in the electrical trade. At one time he used a Cessna 310 to support his business. Again, no regrets on his part. Going for a trade after college is one way to become highly successful and able to well afford a fantastic lifestyle. One of my father's friends with whom he went to college got his economics degree, took up plumbing and ended up playing polo for a hobby and living in a splendid mansion. Whatever you do you can always enjoy flying for pleasure. It does not have to be a means to an end.

I would encourage you regardless of your ultimate decision to at least go for the private and instrument ratings. Flying is great pleasure and you will never be sorry that you can fly for fun. Flying someplace for the classic $100 hamburger with friends or taking a day trip someplace is so enjoyable! Getting the ratings is never a waste. Even though I no longer fly for a career, I am sure glad I have the ratings!

Fly safe and never stop enjoying the blue skies above

Kilomike

 

[Wiggums]

I just couldn't help but comment on the above advertisement for ATP......specifically the time table of "from private to all your instructor ratings in 3 or 4 months!" What kind of diploma factory are you guys running? 3 months from freshly minted private to MEII? I not sure how that works...and what kind of instructor comes out of that program? I really don't want to debate which 141 program is best (ATP lost their 141 status for forging student paper work) But I will quote my college economics professor "there is no such thing as a free lunch" You get what you pay for, and if you pay for a MEII in 3 months you will end up with just that, a very inexpierenced instructor who rushed through all his/her tickets. Ask yourself, as a student would you want that person as your instructor?

I think that you might be mistaken on ATP losing 141 status, as far back as I know ATP was NEVER a 141 school. Maybe your thinking about ATA, a school that did lose 141 status. Also, it is possible to go from private to MEII in 95 days. You'll fly every day, and study every night, but all of the former ATP students I've meet have been pretty sharp. Think about this, it takes a reasonable intelligent person to get their ratings in 95 days, if they can't hack it they get washed out.

We can sit here all day and call ATP and Sheble's diploma mills or pilot factories, however, it comes down to how hard the student worked, and how good their instructor was.

 

[FSIGRAD]

You are right I should of done my homework before going on a rant! I was thinking of ATA not ATP. My apologizes, my intent was not to bash a school without reason. I just honestly feel that timetable is way too fast. The purpose of professional flight training, especially at the instructor level should be to build solid foundations of knowledge and expierence. Not to rush through taking every shortcut. Lets say you took your private at a school that offers a fast 2 week program, then right into the 95 day program. You could have someone who is teaching instruments in a multi-engine airplanes who only starting flying 3.5 months ago? I guess it's all legal but I personally would not recomend that course of action.
Thats just my thoughts on the subject, I could be wrong!

 

[bobbysamd]

Accelerated training?

I second FSIGRAD from the standpoint that he and I have FSI in common. I taught at FSI. FSI has a six-month program, zero time to Commercial Multi Instrument. That course alone is a lot to learn in six months simply because it takes time for your mind to absorb so much new information and to learn an unnatural skill (yeah, even for you Chuck Yeager types ). Some people can absorb learning and training like a sponge. Some people can and will learn, but need time. These people will fall behind or become discouraged or both, and will be sent home or quit, unfairly. The rest of us learn at an average rate, no matter how smart we are or how hard we study or how well we apply ourselves.

You indeed want to build a solid foundation, and experience, because the rest of your flying career will rest upon it. 95 days is very little time to go from Private to MEI, in my $30K flight school cost opinion. Think about it. How many different kinds of flying conditions can you experience as a student in three months?

I will say the pros of such a course is it can prepare you for the real world of aviation. Once you get to ground school, the instructors will place your mouth against a fire hose and turn on the flow of information. You need to know how to learn to keep up with an airline ground school.

Once again, just my $30K flight school cost opinion.