Hello ACA

[C-5 MEM]

Hi ACATERRY

Just got back from Kuwait. Body is on a 7 hour time difference.
I am 179 from the bottom. I think I am on the block.

TV

 

[embdrvr]

Re: Re: .

remember fellas, glycol is not cheap...

So let's say a Fed or mgmt pilot happens to be sitting in the back and I blow off deicing because the ramper thinks I'm being an idiot....Which one of you rampers will pay my kids private school tuition, mortgage, and SUV payment if I get suspended?

 

[ryjacks]

It is your (crew) decision if it is adhering to the aircraft or not. If we need deicing so be it.

I just like the "If Eagle is getting deiced, then we better get deiced" mentality. Been there, done that.

But once again, furloughees, we hope you guys are back soon.

RJ

 

[smellthejeta]

Quote: BTW, the crews who knew me knew that when I asked them to spin a loading for me, I had a reason for it and they did it. Those who knew me also knew that when I told them to up the reported weight in the back, they did it. Why? If you have a loading situation where the bags are heavier than average, your actual weight and theoretical weight will be off and cause you problems.


---------------

smellthejeta,

Forgive me if I am misreading this, but are you saying that you disregard the FAA approved average bag weight program when some bags are heavier than the standard? I don't have my FOM here in front of me to look it up but is that even an allowable practice? Do you have the actual weight of every single bag to give the crew an exact total on the weight in the back? I have never had a ramper in ORD or IAD come "tell" me to "up" the reported weight in the back of the aircraft. We simply follow the approved procedure for bag weights.

I don't know if "disregard the FAA approved average weight and balance program..." is the proper word choice. Yes, it is an allowable practice. To quote sections 12-5-1 and 15-1-5 (caps are from the FOM, and heck, they wrote the same thing twice so it must be important):

CAUTION RAMP, CUSTOMER SERVICE, AND CREW PERSONNEL WILL BE VIGILANT FOR BAGGAGE LOADS ON FLIGHTS THAT MAY FALL INTO THE GUIDLELINES ESTABLISHED IN ACA'S FAA-APPROVED "AVERAGE WEIGHT AND BALANCE PROGRAM" BUT ARE CLEARLY HEAVIER THAN WHAT MIGHT NORMALLY BE EXPECTED (I.E., A FLIGHT FULL OF INTERNATIONAL PASSENGERS, EACH WITH A 60-65 POUND CHECKED BAG, NONE OF WHICH WAS REQUIRED TO BE TAGGED AS A HEAVY BAG.) IN THOSE AND SIMILARLY UNIQUE SITUATIONS, THE PERSON NOTING THE POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION SHOULD BRING IT TO THE PIC'S ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY. THE PIC HAS THE OPTION OF "HEAVY" TAGGING AND ICNREASING THE WEIGHT OF ANY BAG AS NECESSARY TO ENSURE A SAFE FLIGHT.

I gather you fly the CRJ, and I figure you've never had that conversation with ramp for a few reasons. First, I rarely got concerned about RJ loadings because the volume of bags gave a better sample from which to draw an average from. (I.e., the more bags you have, the more likely it is the loading will fall into the average category). Second, even if you were able to get 100 average bags on the flight, you're still 1000 lbs under the structural limit for the section (3500 lbs). Third, there are only two cities where the loadings ever bothered me: JFK and ORF, both J41 cities. Fourth, that clause I quoted is nowhere to be found in any station ops manual that I've ever seen (think FOM for ground staff). Heck, half of the rampers don't even know what W&B even is.

Re: the math, think about it this way. If I have a 49 lb bag, is it average or heavy? Now, if I have 30 49 lb bags, how much does it weigh in actuality? How much does it weigh according to the RF100? There's a big difference, to the tune of 720 lbs. If that were the case, would you want the ramper to note them as standard bags like he's supposed to and let you take off several hundred pounds heavier than what he's recorded? I would not even think about releasing a flight that was that far out of spec. That, sir, is where the approved procedure can cause you problems, and the approved sections even support what I've said.

Re: weighing the bags. You do this enough, you learn how much bags weigh just by picking them up, or at least a good approximation. There are enough bags floating around with actual weights written on them where you can get good benchmarks.

So, perhaps I should reword my original statement and say that "I would advise the crew that based on my professional expereince, I believe the aft has been loaded xxx lbs above what is reported on the form."

I hope that clarifies the post on which you've quoted me.

 

[smellthejeta]

Smellthejeta,

But they do it without the WTF attitude that you are giving us on this board.

Sorry you think I'm giving you a WTF attitude here. I assure you that is not the case. I've been in this business long enough to know that everybody has a reason for everything they do. I would think around this board, there's at least time to give an explanation as to why when there may not be one during a Code 20.

About the plane coming back for the nosewheel steering, think about this. If the whizwheel says it's good, we go. As a ramper, you of all people should know that a 25 lb bag is more like 35-45 lbs. So if the whizwheel says the number is in limits but close, it in actuality is probably a little outside. We know this, but we have to pack as much crap on these planes as we can. The crew briefs it, and if we can't steer, we can't steer. All ACA and the FAA want is legal paperwork. Then we are obliged to try. It's not because, as you insinuate, that we are stupid or ignore you guys. We catch hell if we leave something behind that could have gone with. If it gets to be a safety compromise, the operation has to stop. Whoever doesn't like it, BOO HOO. Safety comes first. If that is inconvenient, too bad.

Which brings up another question... How do you get busted for leaving pax/bags behind when you could have taken them? I know you submit yellow copies of the W&B form to station staff, but does somebody go through and audit the missed bags and VDB/IDB pax and match them to a flight that took off at less than allowed weight? Left behind bags roll over to the next flight or get sent to the bag room and dealt with in the morning and get slapped with a WTRS code. Like I said, I'm just asking how you guys can get busted for that stuff because it must be hard to catch.

You should also realize that most rampers don't care what you leave behind, because we don't have to deal with the upset pax. Not once have I even implied that you guys were leaving things behind for the heck of it, nor have I implied that I actually cared what you left stuff behind. The ONLY issue I raised was that improper planning can lead to lots of delays and extra work for a lot of people.

Look man, I am not saying anything about you rampers. In fact, I had no idea that this kind of animosity towards pilots existed because I always get along so well with you guys.

I think you missed my last post where I said that for the record, almost all the pilots I dealt with were cool people and great guys that I enjoyed working with. Perhaps the animosity thing just gets manufactured by some on this board because everybody's worried about the impending furloughs, and the friggin company keeps stringing you all along. I can't say I envy your position.

If you were saying something else and I somehow missed the point, then we each just wasted a couple hours of our life in here argueing about it. What it all comes down to is this: I always listen more to someone telling me to be more careful than I will to someone telling me how to do my job so we can shove more bags on.

I think that pretty much sums it up and we have been "arguing" in circles. The only point I was trying to make is that rampers aren't stupid, but I think we've covered that three times over. I have always operated with the mentality that he who is most conservative wins. Frankly, I think you guys would let us get away with too much re: tight taxi spots.

 

[acaTerry]

The bags that get left behind get accounted for by the puzzle palace (the tower we call ops). When a passenger raises a stink over the bag getting left behind, UAL/ACA sometimes follows up on it. The CP's office sometimes is too efficient at following up on things like bags getting left behind, although I've only been rebuked once for taking extra fuel when it could have been bags (this was in the summer--and good thing because we juuuuuust landed with legal reserves from all the deviating and holding).
Anyway, it does look like we have been argueing in circles because it looks like we are both saying the same thing except that I misread your original post. The part about the CA authority jumped out at me as a challenge of the CA decision, rather than a challenge of isolating the whole team in an operational issue.
Anyway, this whole furlough mess suck$ for a lot of people right now, which is what this thread was about if I remember right.

 

[smellthejeta]

The bags that get left behind get accounted for by the puzzle palace (the tower we call ops). When a passenger raises a stink over the bag getting left behind, UAL/ACA sometimes follows up on it. The CP's office sometimes is too efficient at following up on things like bags getting left behind, although I've only been rebuked once for taking extra fuel when it could have been bags (this was in the summer--and good thing because we juuuuuust landed with legal reserves from all the deviating and holding).

Do you have any idea on how the CP's office can follow up on stuff like that? The pax would really have to bitch if they were to dig up the copies of the FLIFO and double check your numbers. I was the victim of that once, and all of the yellow copies you turn in are thrown in a trash bag and kept in the Ivory Tower. They were fun to find. How did you get busted for taking extra fuel? Did the station have a copy of the release and bitch that because you wanted more fuel than what was on there, they had to leave bags behind?

I've done some work with pax and mishandled bags, and it's no picnic. Once I had to deal with a lady who was insistent that she saw her bags loaded on the J41 and wanted to know why they weren't at the claim area. She was accusing us of lying to her and that her bags were at the airport, either on the ramp or still on the plane and demanding that somebody go out and look for them. Evidently three different people went and checked and she thought everybody was lying to her.

This was an SDF-IAD run, and after making some phone calls to SDF, it turns out that the bags she saw loaded were in fact loaded, and then removed because of a weight restriction. I think SDF is an AirWisky station, and they have no incentive to handle things according to our procedures. They should have removed pax and left the bags, and it turns out that every single bag that terminated at IAD was left behind for the next flight, which is just stupid. To make it even worse, the flight schedule that month had no late SDF-IAD run, and this particular flight was the last flight to IAD. There was a 6pmish flight to ORD, but once the bags got to ORD, they would barely miss the connection to IAD, requiring them to wait an extra 2 hours until the 8:45 departure to IAD. That's right, bags that should have been at IAD at 3:45 wouldn't get in until 11:45. The station got real bitchy and claimed that they were short on time and didn't have time to deal with it.

At the station level, there is lots of finger pointing when it comes to baggage mishandling, but for the life of me, I fail to see how you guys would get nailed for any of that, considering the FOM says that the handling of a weight restriction is up to the CSR's as to what comes off/what goes on. Since you do have "captain's fuel" how can you get nailed for taking a few hundred extra pounds even if that means you leave bags behind? After all, ain't it your plane?

 

[C-5 MEM]

Talked with CP and he mentioned that UAL has started making some progress on the express side of the house. He told me that the furloughes will start up but he said with UAL talking again that might change things up. I am flying over there this week to sit down and see what is going on.